Since I can see myself possibly posting more around here, I thought maybe I should tell you a little more.

I'm a Jesus person...the New Testament Jesus, not the "Another Testament" Jesus, thank you very much. I've had two rounds of exposure to Mormonism in my life. One at age 14 when I dated a 19yo Mormon in the months leading up to his mission...I know, what is wrong with THAT picture (the question could be asked on both sides)? So yeah, it didn't go well (in more ways than one), and the relationship ended for obvious reasons. But the result for me was that I did a good bit of research into Mormonism. The facts weren't as easy to get at then as they are now, but I think that for a teenager I had a decent handle on what it was all about. The guy's family sent some missionary sisters round to my house, I think it was after he left. I really don't remember anything about the conversation, except for the fact that they never came back.

That experience with Mormonism had another result: sorting through the lies, and identifying corresponding truths, led to the strengthening of my own faith in Christ and a fuller understanding of His grace and mercy.

Fast forward 25ish years, and I'm now in my second round. Became friends with a Mormon family about a year and a half ago---well, mostly the mom, whose daughter was in my son's preschool class. We really didn't discuss faith until a few months ago when I decided to bring it up. It was actually odd to me that I was the one to initiate. I mean...aren't they supposed to be trying to recruit me? It didn't really seem like they were. She invited me to a few functions at their church, but I never went, and she never took it any further. Maybe she wrote me off, since she knew I was an active, churchgoing, Bible studying Christian. Anyway...until recently, I kept quiet, but finally decided that we might as well have things out in the open.

So we've been talking. Which is terrifying, yet exciting for me. I really care about them and want to see them "rescued," and it's exciting to me to think that I could be a part of it, but I'm sure that is a naive hope. I already know that these are not what I would consider everyday Mormons. They're both super intelligent; I (and many others) would even describe the husband as a genius. He's featured on a Mormon "trophy" website---perhaps you know that of which I speak? Anyway, I think they're already familiar with many of the objections to their faith, and also with their apologists' "answers." They might have even written some of them. How such brilliant minds could be so completely deceived is incredible to me.

I'm wondering what you all think of this idea of rescue. I guess this question may have been covered before on these boards, and maybe someday I'll find it...but in the meantime I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts. Are there others here who hope to rescue their TBM (is that the right acronym? Haven't looked it up but I think I know what it means from context) friends or family? If so, any tips on how (or more importantly, how NOT) to go about it?

Or do most of you think they should be left in blissful ignorance, or left to find their own way out? I know that in this age of pluralism, it's considered "Incorrect" in most circles to try to "correct" others in matters of religion. Is that true here as well?

It's a little scary to even write about this. I mean, could my friends be lurking on these boards? I highly doubt it...and if they were, well, I guess that would be a good thing, right?

Another thing I should say about myself: yeah, I know that I overuse parentheses, dot dot dots, and dash dash dashes. I hope it's not too distracting.

ETA: Obviously, I'm not an ex Mormon. However this is the best group I've found in terms of knowing the facts and where to find them. I hope it's ok that I'm here?

Welcome back...the sentiment here is pretty well straight forward...entire crew makes a serious effort not to recruit in any manner...were pretty much nondenominational in intents of any kind...

As far as you 'working' on a deconversion/deprograming with your Mormon friends...that is a personal choice/challenge only you can answer for yourself...many of us here have similar friends and make efforts in education. Many have dear family members who are still under the influence and struggle with negative/toxic relationships. Some here may wish to share with you ideas/techniques/strategies that have helped provide information to effect some positive changes in TBM's..be aware that extraction/rescues/deprogramming normally take a serious commitment and much time to be effective..

and then again, not many like to watch others suffer or punish themselves unecessarily.

So if you need some help, stick around and ask away...

_________________
"When authority masquerades as a power, a simple question will unmask it."

"Just because you think, feel, or believe something is true, doesn't make it true!"

"The doubt of your faith, is not God testing you, but truth trying to emerge and free you."

Fifty or sixty percent of LDS fact searchers might find church at a different venue acceptable for themselves and maybe some others.

_________________
God of Poly-Folly Folly

{ If you believe in things that you don't understand, then you suffer ~ Stevie Wonder }
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God of Poly-Folly Folly

My honest opinion since I left the church one year ago, is that people should be allowed to do what makes them happy. If people want to talk about their questions about the religion and its holes, then great. If they want to continue on with their lives in their own happy way, then good for them.

Like I said, I have only been out of the church for one year, so maybe my opinion will change as I get older and further from it. My goal is not to unconvert anyone, or break up any families. I only want people to accept the choices and respect them that have been made by myself and my family.

If the members are out to prove you wrong, there is nothing wrong with healthy debate. However, going at them with the plans of destroying their faith, and the possibility of ruining their families is not something that I could live with. People need to make the choice for themselves, and then they need help to see the truth when they are ready for it. It may take months/years, but if they are objective they will come around eventually. There is no reason to stir a pot just for the sake of stirring it.

Once again, this is just my opinion, and many disagree with me I am sure.

It was a man holding a sign on tv that said "josephlied.com" that was my first encounter with "anti-mormon" material. I tucked it away for many years, but it always itched a little bit.

I think that devout and happy people deserve the right to their beliefs just as an Athiest my disagree with your Christian faith doesn't necessarily need to try and "rescue you" from your ignorance. (not saying that you are wrong, but many would).

There are many situations where the church as a toxic hold on people and it can be very unhealthy. These are situations where people may need a "rescue", or at least a good friend to talk to about things that could help them find their way out of the church. As I type this post, I think of all the wrong things about the church, and how much I would love to tell them all if I could. But I think people deserve to make their own choices and try not to judge them for such.

The opposite is true as well, and there are many who are truly happy, and take much pride in the social status that the church grants them. Others jobs and livelyhoods depend solely on church standing, and removing them from it could literally "destroy" their lives.

As others have said, it is up to your own judgement how much help, or damage you could do to them, but my suggestion would be to do a little investigating about them before challenging their belief system.

As far as rescue, been there done that. A whole lot of emotional strain involved with being concerned about people you know and love and trying to teach the truth to, but very little success. Now I mostly just avoid the issue, unless someone makes comments in mydirection. My only real peeve is when some Elder sticks his hand out and calls me "brother", that tends to raise my ire. My only advice would be don't beat yourself to death over any desire to "fix" other people.

I am an atheist now by rite of passage, so the bigger issue with me is when people try to insert their beliefs into my life. That I don't tolerate.

_________________
"We establish no religion in this country, we command no worship, we mandate no belief, nor will we ever. Church and state are, and must remain separate."
Ronald Reagan

Hello cp,

I think the 1st thing you should find out (by asking) is if they are happy as members of the church. If they knew for sure that JS wasn't standing in front of the pearly gates deciding who could and couldn't enter would they still want to be members.

Hi cp2525!

Welcome aboard.

As a Christian looking back, I found it quite telling that during the almost two years I studied with a cultish sect no one ever asked me to pray and accept salvation in Jesus, kneeling at the cross trusting in his propitiation. Why? Because it was a works religion!

One more thing to consider:

As far as trying to rescue TBMs from the LDS faith: you may find information from a series of articles I have written helpful? I wonder what the outcome would be if you and a Mormon friend were to go through my article Those Mysterious Golden Plates together paragraph by paragraph, looking up the endnote references, and engaging in a searching and honest discussion?

_________________
"Asking God if a story is true, with the only acceptable answer being, 'Yes,' may not be a sound method to finding God’s guidance in the matter." — Rich Kelsey
http://richkelsey.org/joseph_smith's_first_vision.htm

CP,

How to witness?

Go with what you know. Don't try and be an expert on things you don't know. You can learn it for sure, but stick with your strengths. Each person has their own wedge issue and it's hard to predict.

Maybe you talk about Grace, because if a Mormon is honest, he'll say that he's "Saved by grace after all that [he] can do" That's like saying I'm going to give you your birthday present as soon as you earn it. If there is a price for it, or if you in any way deserve it, it's not really grace. It's also an impossible measure. Nobody has done all that they can do. Nobody. And it's an impossible metric. So how do you know if you are saved by Grace? They don't. If they are honest they will admit this. And if they are honest, many will admit that maybe they won't reach the top kingdom. And so their religion, though they like and support it won't save them. And then maybe you quote "If savlation came by the law the Jesus died in vein." They can believe what they believe, but it's not Biblical.

There are some christian sites out there that give additional info on witnessing to mormons, MRM.org and IRR.org are 2 good ones. I recommend them as they have a passion for the work and they have experiences to share.

The most powerful thing you can do is just ask the right questions and get them thinking. They will convince themselves in front of their laptop in the quiet of their homes.

Peace

_________________
I resigned from the Church of THE Jesus Christ of the Latter Day Saints (Feb 2011)

"For nothing is secret, that shall not be made manifest; neither any thing hid, that shall not be known and come abroad." - Luke 8:17

Hi Cp,

I loved reading about your experience, but I am interested why you feel you need to 'rescue' these people? Life is all about learing, you can't force your ideas on them any more than they can force theirs on you. My opinion is that if going to church every sunday, and being part of that bubble makes you happy, then so be it.

I needed more in my life, I needed the questions answered. I guess one could argue I have no faith, but that is only one side of things.... After all, don't they preach that "faith without works is dead" ? You can't do the work for someone else.

However, I would not sit still without pointing out my views at any opportunity. They might see the value on their own.

Just a thought anyway

Jillene

_________________
"I find your lack of faith disturbing." -- Darth Vader

1. Whether I see leaving Mormonism as a "rescue" really depends on the individual. For me, it was. I'm still friends with a lot of Mormons (albeit weird ones), and it varies between them. I was lucky, since I had a good support system outside of the Church. I had a good non-Mormon boyfriend and friends who didn't ostracize me. I wasn't financially dependent on my Mormon parents.

For individuals who face being ostracized by family and friends (especially young teens), it might be less of a rescue. Leaving the church may mean leaving their entire support network, leaving them isolated and alone. One of my best friends who is 32 stays in the Church, and I think it would be really bad for him to leave. He's single and the Church is the center of his social life. Without church, he wouldn't have much going on for him right now. My middle sister needs the church right now. My brother and youngest sister are on the fence about it. My parents REALLY need it. Losing their faith would be devastating. It would literally mean losing everything they had spent their life on.

If I had tried to leave while I was in college at BYU-Idaho, it would have been really difficult, if not impossible. Timing also makes a huge difference.

2. The only way you would be able to "rescue" these people is if something about Mormonism isn't working for them. If it's not causing them pain or distress, they won't leave, and you shouldn't try to make them. As much as I dislike organized religion, the Church does work for some people. You wouldn't want your Mormon friends trying to "rescue" you from your religion that you're happy with, so you should afford them the same respect. However crazy their beliefs sound to you, yours sound just as crazy to them. Bank on it.

Besides which, is it worth having a friendship with an agenda? Can you be friends with these people without trying to change them? People pick up on that stuff. If you push them in a direction they don't want to go, you're going to lose the friendship.

I'm not religious, so I don't think "vanilla" Christianity is inherently better or different from Mormonism. Nor do I think one is more deluded than the other. But if you do want to help your friends, the best way to do that is to just be a good friend. Don't treat them like a project.

3. What would you consider a "rescue?" Many of us turn to atheism or agnosticism after leaving the church. Would it be acceptable to you if your friends leave Mormonism, but find themselves unable to believe in God once they do? It's fairly common, since we've been taught from a young age that Mormonism is the One True Church. It becomes difficult to trust religious systems, and you become more skeptical about everything. Mormonism is tied up in a lot of traditional Christian beliefs--it's not always as easy as just forgetting about Joseph Smith. Your plan might not work out the way you think it will. Which is, again, why I refer you back to Number 2: Just be a friend and don't treat them like a project.


Welcome to the boards. We actually get a fair amount of people who aren't ex-Mormons on here. Hopefully our Mormon slang and jargon isn't too confusing for you!

Lavender

_________________
"If Lions could think, their Gods would have a mane and roar." - Xenophanes

"Wow! So the Bible is really a trilogy, and the Book of Mormon is 'Return of the Jedi?' I'm interested!" - Elder Cunningham, The Book of Mormon

Hi cp2525, welcome. I'm not & never have been LDS but came to this extremely useful site as a result of a relationship I'd had with a married Mormon guy. I'd been quite affected as a result of this and I've been helped a lot in understanding how things work in the 'church' which I firmly believe is a cult. I do think there's a lot of good advice been given so far on this thread & I would agree wholeheartedly that, if your friends are OK in their lives generally (& the fact that they've not attempted to suck you their way seems to show that they're decent people), then there's no one really to rescue. I had quite a few discussions with the Mormon ex-BF, I was generally curious about issues of faith as I'm not a church goer or active in any faith but I'm open minded about spirituality. However, the fact that he was 'transgressing' whilst in the relationship with me & that he was aware of the conflict this presented to his belief was the prod I used to direct him thinking about other contradictory aspects of his relationship with the church without coming across as judgemental. He's still in his toxic marriage but, interestingly, hasn't renewed his temple recommend which expired 6 months ago. Your friends might well be wavering in their testimony in which case be there for them as maybe a sounding board and take guidance about how to proceed in assisting them from the advice already given here. But they might also be taking something good (yeah - I know, difficult to accept that one but just about possible) from aspects of their faith and might simply welcome open discussion as friends about different points of view. Gosh! That'd make them really enlightened LDS.....do such creatures actually exist??

cp2525, welcome, again, and I think you'll be fine here.
The number of "Christians" posting on exmormonforums seems to be increasing, or maybe the ones speaking up are just being more open about being Christians than earlier ones were. What we are is "exmormons" and in various stages of recovery, from the first fearful doubt that has us wondering if someone is "watching" us as we post, to being so far detached from our mormon past that we stop posting altogether. And that means, we will be a virtual rainbow of opinions on religion. Some Christian, some pagan, some agnostic, some atheist. We usually get along pretty well together. Myself, I like parts of the New Testament pretty much; but not the whole thing; and I shy away from calling myself "Christian". I don't believe in the miracles (not as they are reported anyway), or a lot of things that Christians are pretty excited about, and that they think, if they weren't true, then Christianity wouldn't be true. Anyway - just sayin'.

When I first realized that I had found a religious system that was better - in many ways - to Mormonism, I thought that I still would not try to dissuade people from the Mormon Church, unless I could offer them something better. So if you think you have something better - and you probably do - I'd say, go ahead and share it. "Cp2525 planted, Apollos watered, but God was causing the growth. So then neither the one who plants nor the one who waters is anything, but God who causes the growth."

Be aware that later in life, you may again find something better than where you are at now.

I think you need to take your time. And I have to admit, when my DH came to me at first, I was accepting, then the next day I was so angry with him, I did the typical TBM thing, by reading my patriarchal blessing, praying, reading my scriptures. I got so angry with him, I almost kicked him out of the house. But I love him, and he could tell I was upset, and we talked again. I was able to remove myself from the typical thinking, and discover the truth for myself. It is a long process. I feel like I went through the normal feelings. When you've been taught something your whole life, and one day find out very damning evidence it's not true. You get angry and try to prove that it's true .My husband and I explained our feelings about the church to my mom, and at first she was kind of leaning toward our view, and then she went to church, got all upset, and has almost tried to reconvert, at least me. She makes little comments that really dig at me. My DH took time with me, where I think we rushed it a little bit with my mom, where now she is so upset and hurt that we don't believe. My mom is going through the angry phase right now. And maybe she'll come around, maybe she won't. But our whole purpose wasn't necessarily to "rescue" her, but to explain why we don't believe anymore. (We live with her, so she was kind of pushing to know why we weren't going to church)
I was able to spend some time with her today, and I just had to tell her that she needed to be respectful to our feelings, and we'll be respectful to hers. And that's the key, take time, and be respectful. It's not an easy thing to find out.

"Its not an easy thing to find out" Pretty much a true statement, but then again, continued deception is far more harmful. The truth may scare people, no doubt about it, but there is more continued destruction with deception.

One of my sons, choses not to engage his younger RM brother, about "the crazy s*** his brother believes in," because he feels the change would be too devastating to his life, and he doesn't want religion/religious issues to stand between them. He wants/desires to maintain his relationship with his little brother.

As their father I can see it from both sides..But then again, from my disaffected point of view, continued deception is far more destructive over the course of time...tough choices.

_________________
"When authority masquerades as a power, a simple question will unmask it."

"Just because you think, feel, or believe something is true, doesn't make it true!"

"The doubt of your faith, is not God testing you, but truth trying to emerge and free you."