GUNS IN UTAH

Comfort · **Joined:** Tue Mar 02, 2010 4:00 am **Posts:** 45

I apologize in advance to all of the gun affectionados, but here goes.

Recently, I beloved former BYU Professor and Mission President was brutally murdered so that a thief could still his stash of 32 weapons. Weapon "hording" is not rare in Utah. Mormons especially believe that our Constitutional Bill of Rights |(2nd amendment) is a divine entitlement to "keep and bare arms". Some consider this almost a divine duty.

My concern is that Utah has the least restrictive gun laws in the nation as per the Brady, Bill index (names after former Secretary of State, Brady who was shot in the head and permanently paralyzed). Utah scores a zero and is the only State in the U.S. to allow concealed weapons to be brought unto University of Utah campus and classrooms. Utah even scored a flat zero for firearm safety for children and laws to prevent kids easy access to firearms. This is odd considering that Utah is the youngest state in the nation and has the most children per ca-pita. I would have thought that child safety would at least
merit some consideration in the gun debate. Not so.

This week, Utah passed Senate Bill 11, the Fire Arms Freedom Act that would exempt most Utah made guns and ammunition from Federal Regulation. The bill's sponsor is Senator Margaret Dayton, R- Orem, LDS graduate of BYU.

Ok, here is my problem. My dear son-in-law is a disabled Vet who pulled a gun because of Post-Traumatic Stress Syndrome and anger management issues. He now has some serious mental problems, has hurt a lady and threatened to open fire on the police who arrested him. Although he is a convicted felon and on parole, he is still able to get firearms in Utah. Last week, he sold a firearm that a lady used to kill herself (or she was murdered). We have also had a terrible time with illegal weapons traffickers along one main highway that runs through Salt Lake City and up to Ogden. I was shot at 2 months ago because I work nights and just happened to come home at the wrong time.

I guess that I am feeling disillusioned with some of my fellow Latterday Saints because they are so lax and careless when it comes to firearms. They rant and rave and call those who want stricture gun control, "ball-less Quakers" |(so tired of the sexist term, ball-less) Those who stockpile weapons are referred to in Church-owned newspapers as, gun-loving, freedom-loving, patriots.

Ok, I welcome your opinions. Don't want to debate gun control, just want to vent. I am so close to resigning my membership and joining the Quakers just because I can't tolerate the violence anymore.

Susie · **Posted:** Sun Mar 07, 2010 5:44 am

Comfort wrote:

I apologize in advance to all of the gun affectionados, but here goes.

Recently, I beloved former BYU Professor and Mission President was brutally murdered so that a thief could still his stash of 32 weapons. Weapon "hording" is not rare in Utah. Mormons especially believe that our Constitutional Bill of Rights |(2nd amendment) is a divine entitlement to "keep and bare arms". Some consider this almost a divine duty.

My concern is that Utah has the least restrictive gun laws in the nation as per the Brady, Bill index (names after former Secretary of State, Brady who was shot in the head and permanently paralyzed). Utah scores a zero and is the only State in the U.S. to allow concealed weapons to be brought unto University of Utah campus and classrooms. Utah even scored a flat zero for firearm safety for children and laws to prevent kids easy access to firearms. This is odd considering that Utah is the youngest state in the nation and has the most children per ca-pita. I would have thought that child safety would at least merit some consideration in the gun debate. Not so.

This week, Utah passed Senate Bill 11, the Fire Arms Freedom Act that would exempt most Utah made guns and ammunition from Federal Regulation. The bill's sponsor is Senator Margaret Dayton, R- Orem, LDS graduate of BYU.

Ok, here is my problem. My dear son-in-law is a disabled Vet who pulled a gun because of Post-Traumatic Stress Syndrome and anger management issues. He now has some serious mental problems, has hurt a lady and threatened to open fire on the police who arrested him. Although he is a convicted felon and on parole, he is still able to get firearms in Utah. Last week, he sold a firearm that a lady used to kill herself (or she was murdered). We have also had a terrible time with illegal weapons traffickers along one main highway that runs through Salt Lake City and up to Ogden. I was shot at 2 months ago because I work nights and just happened to come home at the wrong time.

I guess that I am feeling disillusioned with some of my fellow Latterday Saints because they are so lax and careless when it comes to firearms. They rant and rave and call those who want stricture gun control, "ball-less Quakers" |(so tired of the sexist term, ball-less) Those who stockpile weapons are referred to in Church-owned newspapers as, gun-loving, freedom-loving, patriots.

Ok, I welcome your opinions. Don't want to debate gun control, just want to vent. I am so close to resigning my membership and joining the Quakers just because I can't tolerate the violence anymore.

I won't get on my liberal rant about the "right" to bear arms. Yes, I put quotes around right. I know it's legal and a part of the constitution...but it is abused in so many states...especially Utah...'nuff said.

I'm so very sorry Comfort to hear about your BIL. I just pulled up a random Google search about mentally ill persons and shootings. WOW!! People ending up killed by police or others for pulling a weapon - all over the place. Here in my lovely city, a woman did the same thing...then called 911 and hung up (could have been reaching out for help - we'll never know). She had a history of mental illness. Somehow she got shot and killed by the KCPD. :evil:

The son is suing. I hope they wipe up the city with what the KCPD did.

So yet again another morgbot wants to exempt Utah from yet another federal regulation. Does this fall in the same category as the fool who wants to make miscarriage a crime of murder? Utah has to be an "exemption" to so many laws and regulations; yet they pull the American as apple pie bullshit on anyone that thinks otherwise. If I didn't have so many friends from Utah...and the fact that Utah is a lovely state, I would strike up a petition to have the state ex-ed out of the USA. Maybe ol' Governor Boggs was on to something when he signed that extermination order of the Mormons in Missouri way back when!

Get out of the clutches of the cult, Comfort. I could rant all day about this and that and the other regarding guns in Utah, Utah thinking they're above the law (always have throughout the history of the cult)...but I'm not a morning person and those who know me know that I'm not really eloquent at this time of the day. Again, my thoughts are with your family.

paladin · **Joined:** Mon Nov 16, 2009 9:36 am **Posts:** 676

I don’t presently own any firearms for reasons I have stated elsewhere, but in the past, I have owned many. The Second Amendment right to keep and bear arms stems largely from the revolutionary war, where it was deemed necessary for citizens to able to stand up to a corrupt government, and also for a local government to put down insurrection. Every state has the right to form militias as deemed necessary, and people have the right to retain firearms for their own protection.

The Second Amendment has been fought over hundreds of times. It is loosely defined for a reason, so that states and cities can interpret the laws and impose them-or not- as they choose. The result is you have strict gun laws in one state and lax gun laws elsewhere. The problem with firearms is in part the fault of government. Lack of funding for the department of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms leads to lax law enforcement. They do not do a proper job of policing gun dealers and have minimal oversight on how guns are sold. Another problem is that there are so many guns available, that anybody wanting one will get one, if they try hard enough. Convicted felons are forbidden to possess guns, But I guarantee you if they want one, they can get one.

The person or gun dealer that sold your brother that weapon should be in jail for that. He has broken the law by selling the weapon, or at least should have exercised some common sense in the matter. In Utah, even though there have been instances of threats with firearms in our schools, I don’t believe there is yet a law that specifically addresses that. Even with all the instances that have happened in recent memory, there is still inadequate control and policing of dealers and people who trade and sell guns.

Abinadi · **Posted:** Mon Mar 08, 2010 4:14 pm

Of 14,831 murder victims reported in the USA in 2007, 10,086 were killed with a gun; 1,796 by cutting or stabbing; 647 with a blunt object; 854 by hands, fists, feet, or pushing; 130 by arson; the remaining 1,016 by some other means. Three of the most notorious murderers in recent history, John Wayne Gacey, Theodore Robert Cowell (a.k.a., Ted Bundy), Jeffrey Dahmer ("Cannibal of Milwaukee") disdained guns, preferring to drown, strangle, or bludgeon their victims. Likewise, Coral Eugene Watts ("Sunday Morning Slasher"), Herman Webster Mudgett ("Dr. Holmes"), Gary Leon Ridgway. Even if no gun stores operated, killers would find ways to get guns or make them themselves (a student was arrested on my campus for carrying a super-large calibre pistol he had made), or migrate to automobiles as weapons, poison gas, home-made bombs, scimitars, or their bare hands (Christopher Scarver, who beat Jeffrey Dahmer to death in prison). On the other hand, many violent criminals, including Charles Whitman, William Diller Hollenbaugh, Patrick Tracy Burris, have been stopped by someone armed with a gun.

paladin · **Joined:** Mon Nov 16, 2009 9:36 am **Posts:** 676

I have a son who has done two tours in Iraq and also owns a handgun. On his second tour he was a Staff Sergeant and was responsible for the lives of others, and went through it without losing a man. But he did have to help recover and bury the bodies of Marines he was working with. He suffered PTSD from his experiences. When he came home, my son, who is a manly, party loving, take life as it comes guy, crawled into bed and didn't leave his room for two weeks. He ended up being treated by psychiatrists and had a hard time dealing with it. I assume he is ok now. But I worry about the possibility of suicide, even now.

The problem with firearms is the "convenience" factor. As Abinadi said, anyone willing to do harm or commit crimes will find a way. But a knife or a club will kill at arms length. A firearm much more efficiently and at a distance. I don't believe in gun control. But I do believe we need better mechanisms in our society to help people like my son, and Comfort's brother-in-law. We teach men to kill, we arm them, we send them into the most stressful and dangerous environment ever created by man, and then simply don't do enough to counteract the physiological aftermath our soldiers suffer.

Abinadi · **Posted:** Tue Mar 09, 2010 4:23 pm

I think you've got it all right, Paladin.
I forgot to mention, terrorists prefer guns (and bombs),
both for long-range ability and greater mass destruction.
So that's one of those places that the controls need to be worked on.

Some of the controlling mechanisms are in place.
People who want to carry a gun (especially concealed) are investigated (police, FBI, etc.). The problem with this is that most criminals don't apply for permits, and a number of them toss their gun as soon as they've used it.

Here's what I foresee. Malls, theaters, hospitals, departments stores, and whoever wants to, will have x-ray machines in their entrances, like airports and some federal buildings do now, plus videos. Anyone with a weapon, legal or not, will be spotted immediately, and may be told to depart. People who care carrying legally, will obey since not to obey subjects their guns to confiscation and (at least in my jurisdiction) nullification of their permit. People who are not legal, their goose is cooked - xray and video record, which can be sent directly to the police computers. Cameras can follow him, maybe even those flying cameras you see in some future/sci-fi movies.

There will always be criminals, I suppose, but as time passes, it will become impossible to be a successful, unincarcerated violent criminal

Comfort · **Joined:** Tue Mar 02, 2010 4:00 am **Posts:** 45

Dear Abinidi,

You are absolutely right that serial killers are sick individuals who will find a way to kill. They don't need firearms. I relish your insightful and fair prospective.

I'm feeling a little calmer now, two weeks past my daughter's friend's suicide by fire-arm. Again, the firearm was sold to her by a convicted felon on probation and it raises a red flag that someone can commit a gun crime in Salt Lake City, serve time in jail, get out on probation and acquire a firearm within a very short time. This person even had his picture taken with Senator Orin Hatch and the Utah Governor just to signal that this element is alive and well and can fool the government.

In 2006, a Movie came out that was entitled, "September Dawn" or something like that. It depicted the horrific Mountain Meadow Massacre and portrayed Mormons in a very unfavorable light. My ancestor were pioneers, quite, gentle, former Quakers who had converted to Mormonism. Quakers denounce war, violence and use firearms only for hunting. I see many Mormons as gentle, kind citizens. What is happened now is that Utah has been dubbed, "the gun capital of the U.S." and the easiest place in America to buy a firearm. We are attracting drug dealers and illegal arms traders. I just wish that the LDS in Utah wouldn't be so pro gun-rights.

Abinadi · **Posted:** Wed Mar 10, 2010 12:20 pm

If I someone in my family had died by gun, I'm afraid I'd be on a crusade to keep all guns out of my whole entire neighborhood. And we've got a sheriff's deputy living across the street from us; he is not about to give his guns up. It took me a long time to accept that it might be okay for some people (police, soldiers) to carry guns. And longer still for me to feel it's okay for me to shoot a gun at even a target.

Imo, men (and women and children) who commit serious acts of violence or encourage or facilitate violence, are usually treated too gently (in the U.S.). Besides the general laxity, there is the Power of Money and Connections. So a Kennedy clan politico can drive drunk into a federal building and simply announce they are going to a rehabilitation program, and the son of a foreign ambassador can shoot someone down on a public street and go scott free because he has diplomatic immunity. (I'm not making this up!) (And then there's Carter beating a bunny with a boat-paddle, and the Cheny-Whittington shooting, and I'm sure there are more hunting accidents than are reported.)

Politicians hardly care who they are photographed with. It's all fame and fortune to them. Smile, get everyone else to smile, get elected, get friends elected, then run over people indiscriminately. I apologize for my cynicism; I'm fighting it, but there is no Cynics Anonymous to help me.

I am, btw, more than a little angry at hearing that felon sold he girl a gun, even regardless of her state of mind. I can't figure how so many murderers wind up in prison. I'm a Dad, and if someone contributed to the death of my child, I don't know that I could let public law takes its course in preference to family justice.

(Now my blood pressure is all up again.
I knew I shouldn't have come into the politics forum.)

paladin · **Joined:** Mon Nov 16, 2009 9:36 am **Posts:** 676

The person that gave me the information I stated in my first response was himself a gun dealer and gunsmith, who ordered and fine tuned guns for policemen and sheriffs. The gun dealers themselves know the problem. My friend told me how easy it was to slip through the cracks by using bogus information to apply for gun sales licenses, and how inadequate the efforts were to solve the problem. Even the NRA has voiced the need for better oversight by the ATF.

There is a total lack of rational thinking at every level of government, not the least by a State Government that consists of a part-time, pistol-packin', let's go a-huntin' bunch of Mormons. As I say, I am not an advocate of disarming the populace, but common sense has to be applied somewhere.

teoma2 · **Posted:** Sat Mar 13, 2010 6:54 am

A few corrections are in order here I feel..UTAH already has safety codes already in place and designed for the proper, safe storage of weapons...andALLguns ales are subject to Federal Laws and compliance with FFL(Federal Firesarms License) to sell any weapon to anybody...reords are kep;tand checked by the Feds routinely to exclude the unfit to carry or own...

And yes, UTAH does lead the nationin CCP issued(Concealed Carry Permits) which are also subject to the laws of each state that the permit carrier may visit or travel to...

So,when one considers the fear mongering rumors rampant(Obama, a BLACK president just talking about taking gun ownership away early in his administration) in this culturally isolated piece of geography, the abundance of CCP's and ease of procurement does have Utah leading the nation in such....You would be amazed at how much ammunition was sold here(Rifle shotgun and pistol) by legitimate dealers in such..even the reloading components were in short supply due to over purchase/ consumption/hoarding by the lean ones.....

Now as far as the weapons made in Utah being exempt from Federal tax and regulatory guidelines....its, once again the lucre, the money involved, and the long history of not trusting those eddling Gov't agencies from Breedem Young's times...

robinidaho · **Joined:** Tue Jul 29, 2008 7:24 pm **Posts:** 632

Well, I grew up in Idaho and I have guns, and I know how to use them. They are locked safely away when not in use. I didn't feel the need to buy more guns or ammunition just because Obama was elected President.

However, last month during the Washington State Leg session the "tea baggers" showed up for their day to protest taxes and health care. They drove up in their 4x4s and Hummers with real guns strapped to their sides!! TRUE. They walked intimidatingly all over the Capitol Campus and even in the Capitol building. Sure, they have state permits to carry these weapons, but they were using this as an intimidation factor to harass the legislators about health care and taxes.. Now, I believe in free speech and have done plenty of activist things in my life for good causes, but I have never felt the need to carry a gun to do it. The State Patrol was out in force, thank goodness, to minimize the risks. The demonstration was abusive and on the edge of violence.

The news media interviewed these folks about their message and honestly they were parroting the talking points of the likes of FAUX NEWs, RUsh Limpballs and Beck. The reporter asked the spokes person what should we do with all the folks that need health care and can't get it, if they were so against health care? The answer was "Let them die! They are a drain on the system." !?

This is appalling, these people give responsible guns owners a bad name, and further they are dangerous. These people are fascists. They want to let sick people die, but are the same people protesting a women's right to reproductive choices. God help you if you get born poor and get sick and need help. They are also the same people preaching Jesus to you, but they are anything but 'Christlike'.

So, I don't know the answer, but I do know that guns in these people's hands is bad news. Just my $0.02 worth.

Mahonri · **Posted:** Sat Mar 13, 2010 8:45 pm

We should have the right to own and use any firearm or weapon we want. Misuse should be punished severely.

Most Bank Robberies involve automobiles in the crime and escape yet we still allow convicted felons and others to own and drive them.

Misuse is the problem. Make the punishment mandatory, NO exceptions.

Ownership and use if fine for most of us. Remember, if you enjoy what Freedoms you have now that they were bought at the business end of firearms as well as much more destructive firepower of many kinds.

As for laws in Utah. You guys keep electing idiots so what else do you expect?

Gallowglass · **Joined:** Mon Jun 09, 2008 1:17 pm **Posts:** 284

First, I am a gun owner who is willing to accept the responsibility, and accountability of ownership. Meaning I take great care not to do stupid stuff with a firearm. Also, I'm well trained by the military in their use, with the combat experience to back up that training...having said that, I do have issue with these gun nuts. Serious issues as a matter fact because, when it comes to the 2nd Amendment,they always leave out the well regulated milita part. I've got no respect for these clowns when it comes to their revisionist tampering of the Consitution, and Bill of Rights....eventually, these village idiots will spark an incident that will see just how many of them will be willing to die for their misguided beliefs. They tend to forget that there are liberals out there who are not balless Quakers, and probadly more skilled and better prepared to use their firearms....

Abinadi · **Posted:** Mon Mar 15, 2010 6:19 pm

I have been instructed that bringing a gun into a federal building or into any building in which a security system such as metal detector is in place, is illegal. I should think the same applies to State buildings. I should think the people you mention would have been blocked from entry if not arrested. Certainly, I cannot carry a gun, permit or not, into even a county court house, let alone the state supreme court, or the state legislature, or the governor's office.

I would not feel intimidated by people wearing guns around me. Not because I wouldn't think they might use their guns against me, but because I am stupid-stubborn. Try to intimidate me, and I will "stick to my guns"

even if I realize I am wrong! Yeah, I know, I'm a jerk, but that's how I am. If you want to convince me you are right and I am wrong, it has to be with words, not intimidation and bullying.

robinidaho · **Joined:** Tue Jul 29, 2008 7:24 pm **Posts:** 632

Well, it is not illegal in Washington State as long as they have a permit.

Abinadi · **Posted:** Wed Mar 17, 2010 1:21 pm

robinidaho wrote:

Well, it is not illegal in Washington State as long as they have a permit.

Well, then, that might have been a little scary, even for me.
That's a bit too liberal.

GUNS IN UTAH

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