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insanad
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Moderator (Retired)
Joined: Wed Mar 12, 2008 6:46 pm
Posts: 6053
Location: Kolobian highlands
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One of my dear friends Rock Waterman wrote a most brilliant piece on his blog "Pure Mormonism". He's still a loyal Mormon but willing to examine some of the most complex aspects of church history, policy, leadership and culture. I admire him very much and found this latest offering to be a masterpiece. It's a long article but worth every minute to read and research. He recommends some books that I'm anxious to read. http://puremormonism.blogspot.com/2010/ ... d-and.html Here's my review of his article: Quote: Rock, you have written a masterpiece with this one. It's so intruiging and kept me on my seat edge the whole time. Not that I didn't know a lot of this but you've culminated it into one very readable and exciting essay. It's worthy of it's won book and I think you're the man to write it.
I too remember the church prior to the early 1980's when there was autonomy in the individual and wards. It was an exciting time to be LDS. It became a behemoth that sapped all creativity, all individuality and certainly all incentive to contribute out of me and many other LDS.
In a way the corporate aspects of the church became like the snake that consumes ittself but thinks it's getting fatter because it's continually eating.
Your essay reminds me so much of the book, "Animal Farm". It would be fascinating to do a comparison between the rise of Corporate Mormonism and the Soviet model of government.
While I don't think the financial arm of the church is in much danger of imploding I think the membership and image of the LDS church is in dire straights and all those wounds are self inflicted.
Yourself excepted, most of the loyal devout LDS that I know are the embodiment of mindless drones, walking lock step like blind sheep with their nose in the buttocks of the sheep in front of them, all just "Enduring till the end". With most of the brilliant, creative, and innovative people pushed out or jumping ship the church is left with a lot of mercinary soldiers who are not going to do the church much good as examples of a good Mormon life.
They are often dull, drab, overworked, overlooked, grey inside and out and completely unappealing to emulate. They do not seem happy and they do not seem admirable. All pigs are created equal but some pigs are MORE equal. The corporation of the church is a perfect illustration of Animal Farm.
Rock, when you and your lovely wife are ready to leave just know that there are many who will welcome you to freedom and celebrate your creativity, your passion and incredible intellect. No rules, no limits, no censorship. Pour yourself out full strength and be whole again.
If you don't mind, I'm going to post the link to this on Postmo and Exmo. This article is a very fine piece of work. As always, I adore you even when I don't completely agree with you.
Respectfully, Insanad
_________________  Pissing in the Mormon Koolaide one post at a time. LIE PINOCCHIO!!! LIE!!!!
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I'm Alive!
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Goddess of Love and Logic
Joined: Wed Aug 26, 2009 3:50 pm
Posts: 1015
Location: NOT in the Mormon Corridor
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I like this guy's blog and he sure hit the nail on the head!
_________________
"I stand by all the misstatements that I've made.'
- George W Bush
"Forget everything that I have said . . . ." Bruce R. McConkie, August 18, 1978
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indy_jh
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Bishop
Joined: Sun Jan 04, 2009 10:44 am
Posts: 459
Location: Northern Utah
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Great piece! (Thank you, Insanad!)
_________________
Improbi hominis est mendacio fallere - Cicero
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Abinadi
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MODERATOR
Joined: Thu Mar 13, 2008 12:23 am
Posts: 7278
Location: D&C 101:22-23; Mark 15:38
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Quote: I too remember the church prior to the early 1980's when there was autonomy in the individual and wards. It was an exciting time to be LDS. It became a behemoth that sapped all creativity, all individuality and certainly all incentive to contribute out of me and many other LDS. Stop it! You're making me cry. It's a great blog, Insanad, and a link he gives to a dissertation - that dissertation, at least the linguistic part of it - is insightful (inciteful) and fascinating. He even refers to Whorf, which I see too rarely these days. ( I think Whorf's theses are still valid.) A key section on "intelligences" starts on page 232. THen it goes into BY's "intelligence"  and Pratt's immaterialism and so on. Pretty cool. If I were a GA, I sure wouldn't have made the mistake of hiring him; he looks as dangerous to Mormon theology as McMurrin! 
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insanad
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Moderator (Retired)
Joined: Wed Mar 12, 2008 6:46 pm
Posts: 6053
Location: Kolobian highlands
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I don't know what the hell you're talking about Abinadi but I trust you do so I concur.
On Postmo some guy came on and tried to discredit Watermans essay but his critique didn't get much approval. I'm not a scholar of anything so I couldn't really contribute but I thought the attack was petty and immature. My personal knowledge of Rock Waterman tells me he's a very smart guy who still hopes there's something salvagable from the LDS church. I think the only salvagable things are some of the people, Rock Waterman and his wife being two of those precious things.
_________________ Pissing in the Mormon Koolaide one post at a time. LIE PINOCCHIO!!! LIE!!!!
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Abinadi
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MODERATOR
Joined: Thu Mar 13, 2008 12:23 am
Posts: 7278
Location: D&C 101:22-23; Mark 15:38
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 Okay, then. Does the name Benjamin Lee Whorf mean anything to anyone here, or Pratt's "Immaterialism"? Or am I just making a  out of myself? 
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insanad
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Moderator (Retired)
Joined: Wed Mar 12, 2008 6:46 pm
Posts: 6053
Location: Kolobian highlands
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Sorry Abinadi, your obtuse-y-ness went right over my fluffy head. I have never heard of Benjamin Wharf. I've been to Fisherman's Wharf and gotten some very good halibut.
Most of the time I feel really out of the loop and stupid when it comes to intellectual discussions.
_________________ Pissing in the Mormon Koolaide one post at a time. LIE PINOCCHIO!!! LIE!!!!
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Abinadi
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MODERATOR
Joined: Thu Mar 13, 2008 12:23 am
Posts: 7278
Location: D&C 101:22-23; Mark 15:38
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Sorry, I shouldn't have gotten all pretentious like I did.
Benjamin Lee Whorf was a remarkable genius, but isn't referred to very much any more.
I could have left him out.
Pratt's "The Absurdities of Immaterialism" is kind of a Mormon classic. It ridicules belief in a spiritual realm, in order to promote Mormonism's concept of a man-god on a god-planet.
My real point, and the only thing that mattered, was that the link was to a great blog, and the dissertation he linked to was also good. The GAs probably couldn't understand it or didn't read it. Otherwise, I don't think they would have hired him. Maybe they would warn him that his work verged on apostasy.
Humbled,
Abinadi
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insanad
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Moderator (Retired)
Joined: Wed Mar 12, 2008 6:46 pm
Posts: 6053
Location: Kolobian highlands
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I would love to introduce you to Rock Waterman then Abinadi. I think you two are peas in a pod in your egg heady intellectual discussions. Most of it is way over my head. Rock is a very admirable honorable man and has some strange diversions. He's very smart. I think you'll enjoy corresponding with him. Feel free to mention that you know me and invite him to this site. I have before but he hasn't shown up so far.
_________________ Pissing in the Mormon Koolaide one post at a time. LIE PINOCCHIO!!! LIE!!!!
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Lala19
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CTR B
Joined: Sat Jun 05, 2010 9:16 am
Posts: 84
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Insanad, I think you are a good writer with a lot of humor. Maybe you can write a book about mormonism. And I'm serious! I enjoy your posts. P.S. the picture of this man.. looks like a mix of a maffia and psycho  .
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Acoustic Autistic
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General Authority
Joined: Mon Dec 08, 2008 3:17 am
Posts: 703
Location: Provo, UT
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Abinadi wrote: :banana-jumprope: Okay, then. Does the name Benjamin Lee Whorf mean anything to anyone here, or Pratt's "Immaterialism"? Or am I just making a out of myself?  (raises hand) I think he was on the right path in refining Sapir's hypotheses. He's an extremely dry author, but had some good points and fantastic work for how short of a time he lived. Sadly, I haven't read much of the rebuttals and defenses against the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis. Whorf isn't referred to much--if you're not a linguist or a linguistic anthropologist. In the few linguistic classes I've taken, Whorf still has a place in lectures. I'm not familiar with "The Absurdities of Immaterialism," though.
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Wm.Law
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2nd Counselor Bishopric
Joined: Fri Jun 18, 2010 11:35 pm
Posts: 365
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So I am browsing the stacks at the local library in the religion section. I had decided to check out whatever Geza Vermes' book they had there and as I was looking for it saw American Jesus: How the Son of God Became a National Icon. I am already of the opinion that we humans "make God in our image and in our likeness" and so there must be an American Jesus. So I decided I'd go ahead and check it out--besides I might have extra reading time recuperating from surgery next week. Usually I crack open a book to check out the table of contents and maybe the illustrations before deciding to get it, but this time I was in a hurry. So last night I opened the book and found that Chapter 5 is entitled Mormon Elder Brother. Next of interest is that the second illustration is a black and white copy of the picture in the OP. It says of the picture: Quote: Clifford Davis's witty painting The Conformist recalls both Warner Sallman's iconic Head of Christ and efforts by Bruce Barton and others to draft Jesus as a buttoned-up CEO. Warner Sallman's painting must be the copy that hung above the desk in my parent's home. Business CEO Jesus? Is this how he looks when he attends their corporate Board meetings? 
_________________
Tell my mother, tell my father
I've done the best I can
To make them realize this is my life
I hope they understand.
I'm not angry, I'm just saying
Sometimes goodbye is a second chance.
Shinedown, "Second Chance" The Sound of Madness
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insanad
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Moderator (Retired)
Joined: Wed Mar 12, 2008 6:46 pm
Posts: 6053
Location: Kolobian highlands
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Lala19 wrote: Insanad, I think you are a good writer with a lot of humor. Maybe you can write a book about mormonism. And I'm serious! I enjoy your posts. P.S. the picture of this man.. looks like a mix of a maffia and psycho . It's in the works. Having a hard time drawing interest but I'm still working on it. _________________ Pissing in the Mormon Koolaide one post at a time. LIE PINOCCHIO!!! LIE!!!!
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Abinadi
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MODERATOR
Joined: Thu Mar 13, 2008 12:23 am
Posts: 7278
Location: D&C 101:22-23; Mark 15:38
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Thanks, Acoustic. I don't feel so foolish now. I'm not the only one who has read BLW. 
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Acoustic Autistic
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General Authority
Joined: Mon Dec 08, 2008 3:17 am
Posts: 703
Location: Provo, UT
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Linguistics is an offshoot of anthropology, I know a little something of it. It may not be my focus in anthropology, but it is interesting. ^_^ I can't say that I enjoyed his writing style. Whew! Quite dry, but had some serious accomplishments. The best thing I have read in response to the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis was a study on the dialects of Martha's Vineyard (and not even on the ASL population there, just the huge variations in English between the American and native populations over 50 years!) that looked at indexing and...not sound symbolism. Something else. I can't remember, but I did make a B in that grad-level class. 
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insanad
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Moderator (Retired)
Joined: Wed Mar 12, 2008 6:46 pm
Posts: 6053
Location: Kolobian highlands
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So now the MADB doofus's have gotten wind of Rock Watermans blog. Fun Fun Fun!! http://www.mormonapologetics.org/topic/ ... us-christ/ Ok, smart folks, I double dog dare you all to go into the sewer of MADB and play with their heads a little bit. I can't go there because I already caught hypocrititus from some of the more infected people there. _________________ Pissing in the Mormon Koolaide one post at a time. LIE PINOCCHIO!!! LIE!!!!
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Abinadi
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MODERATOR
Joined: Thu Mar 13, 2008 12:23 am
Posts: 7278
Location: D&C 101:22-23; Mark 15:38
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I am in disguise. And I am not Abinadi. 
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insanad
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Moderator (Retired)
Joined: Wed Mar 12, 2008 6:46 pm
Posts: 6053
Location: Kolobian highlands
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Abinadi wrote: I am in disguise. And I am not Abinadi. Would that be this one? Quote: Johan
Newbie: Without form, and void
Group:
Members Posts:
11 Joined:
09-May 07 Posted 2 hours ago
Well, it reminds me mostly of Jesus telling someone, who was financially well off, comfortable, had lots of servants to do things for him, who let Jesus know he wanted to follow Jesus. Jesus reply was to tell him to sell or give away everything he owned, and then to follow him. He couldn't do it. Jesus was sad. He said it is harder for a rich man to get into heaven than for a camel to grunt nails.
Maybe the greatest leaders of the church need to find a way to practice that. Maybe every seventh year, give up all they own, take a vow of poverty, go without script or purse, and teach the gospel in the streets and door to door. One thing that would do, would be to put them in contact with average joes once again. And it would certainly accrue merit in heaven for them. It would be a winwin situation. They would gain blessings, and free themselves of attachment to material goods, offices, titles, honors, honorariums, and on the other hand it would provide non-members with the very best examples and teaching that the church could provide. The apostles and other leaders who do this would be setting a wonderful example for newer, younger missionaries.
The tards at MADB are having a pissing match to see whose state has more meth labs. Is this one of their classic diversionary tactics? _________________ Pissing in the Mormon Koolaide one post at a time. LIE PINOCCHIO!!! LIE!!!!
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Abinadi
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MODERATOR
Joined: Thu Mar 13, 2008 12:23 am
Posts: 7278
Location: D&C 101:22-23; Mark 15:38
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That's a nice post.
I wonder who Johan is?
If they are concerned about health issues varying by states according to membership in the Mormon church, the issues they should be asking about are testicular cancer and brain disease. Seriously. I read somewhere that a greater than average percentage of Mormon men suffer from some form of these two health problems.
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insanad
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Moderator (Retired)
Joined: Wed Mar 12, 2008 6:46 pm
Posts: 6053
Location: Kolobian highlands
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Have any of you listened to the podcasts recommended on that blog? I listened to all four of them this morning. The corruption is so disgusting. Amazing information and really interesting pod-casts. http://mormonstories.org/?p=980 Mormon Stories Podcast Exploring, celebrating and challenging Mormon culture through stories HomeAboutEpisode ListFAQsBooksSubscribeContact149-152: LDS Anthropologist Daymon Smith on Post-Manifesto Polygamy, Correlation, the Corporate LDS Church, and Mammon May 13, 2010 By John Dehlin In this incredibly fascinating 4-part series, long-time Mormon Stories supporter Andrew Ainsworth interviews Daymon Smith Ph.D., a Mormon Anthropologist and the author of a new book called: The Book of Mammon: A Book About A Book About The Corporation That Owns The Mormons (Paperback). In this interview they discuss: •Episode 1: Federal Prosecution, Post-Manifesto Polygamy and the Rise of Mormon Fundamentalism •Episode 2: The Life and Death of the Mormon Speculative Tradition, and the Rise and Costs of Correlation •Episode 3: The LDS Church as a Corporation and the Corporation as a Church •Episode 4: Is the LDS Church Serving God, Mammon, or Both? _________________ Pissing in the Mormon Koolaide one post at a time. LIE PINOCCHIO!!! LIE!!!!
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