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Hagoth
Post  Post subject: Changing the Word of God for fun and profit (prophet)  |  Posted: Sun Jul 31, 2011 10:24 am
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Does anyone know of a good side-by-side comparison (either printed or online) of Joseph's redacted revelations? Example: D&C 8 & 9. If you read the Book of Commandments you see that it's talking about Oliver's divining rod, but it was later rewritten to replace the "rod of nature" with references to the Aaronic Priesthood. Another good example is how the angel Nephi became Moroni. The first edition of the PoGP was actually printed with the name Nephi, as per the handwritten manuscript. I know there are many examples of Joseph or others' retroactive changes to revelations as the doctrine changed, commandments were broken, prophecies failed, etc, causing discrepancies with the original revelations.

Are these assembled anywhere in a single compilation? Or some subset of them? Please help.

Thanks,
Hagoth


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poliisi
Post  Post subject: Re: Changing the Word of God for fun and profit (prophet)  |  Posted: Sun Jul 31, 2011 12:11 pm
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Richard Packham has quite an extensive collection of changes and other issues available at
http://home.teleport.com/~packham/tract.htm

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Abinadi
Post  Post subject: Re: Changing the Word of God for fun and profit (prophet)  |  Posted: Sun Jul 31, 2011 12:57 pm
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Hagoth, the Tanners site utlm.org may lead you to something like what you are looking for.

Bob Witte's "Where Does It Say That?" does not have exactly what you are looking for. However, his booklet has copies of pages once considered authoritative, some of which may dove-tail into what you are seeking.

Hagoth, you were not a member of Juby's church in Independence, were you?


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Hagoth
Post  Post subject: Re: Changing the Word of God for fun and profit (prophet)  |  Posted: Sun Jul 31, 2011 1:44 pm
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Abinadi wrote:
.Hagoth, you were not a member of Juby's church in Independence, were you?


Since I'm not sure what you're talking about, you must be thinking of something else. Hagoth was my username at FARMS. When I started contributing to the NOM forum I thought it seemed appropriate to keep the name.

Hagoth


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Abinadi
Post  Post subject: Re: Changing the Word of God for fun and profit (prophet)  |  Posted: Sun Jul 31, 2011 1:56 pm
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Thanks.
There was a fellow I knew at Juby's church - it was a breakoff from the RLDS, one of many that rejected D&C 156 I think it was. He had presented a little extra information about Hagoth. I wondered about your name because I lost contact with him over the years. :)

Let us know if you find someplace where those editions of scripture are given a side-by-side comparison. That would make an interesting study.


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sleepyhead
Post  Post subject: Re: Changing the Word of God for fun and profit (prophet)  |  Posted: Mon Aug 01, 2011 1:32 pm
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Abinadi wrote:
Let us know if you find someplace where those editions of scripture are given a side-by-side comparison. That would make an interesting study.


http://www.2think.org/hundredsheep/boc/boc_main.shtml


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Abish
Post  Post subject: Re: Changing the Word of God for fun and profit (prophet)  |  Posted: Mon Aug 01, 2011 3:52 pm
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Hagoth wrote:
I know there are many examples of Joseph or others' retroactive changes to revelations as the doctrine changed, commandments were broken, prophecies failed, etc,


1)I know not even one Doctrine that was changed. What is the Doctrine? Could you, please, list at least 5 Doctrines that were changed?
Thanks.

2)The language [of the Doctrine and Covenants], with the exception of the words actually spoken by heavenly beings, is the language of the Prophet. The ideas were given to Joseph Smith. He wrote them in the best language at his command. He was inspired at times by the loftiness of the ideals so that his language or words are far above that ordinarily used by a backwoods boy of that day.
The concepts and ideas were God's, while the wording was Joseph's. That he freely and openly edited them demonstrates that he did not consider them to be some type of fixed, inerrant text.
;) :-)

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Abish
Post  Post subject: Re: Changing the Word of God for fun and profit (prophet)  |  Posted: Mon Aug 01, 2011 3:56 pm
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• Critics claim that a revelation received by Joseph praised Oliver Cowdery's gift of using divining talents. It is claimed that the revelation was published in the Book of Commandments in its original form, then subsequently modified in the Doctrine and Covenants in order to hide the reference to the "rod of nature." Therefore, Joseph attempted to "cover up" Oliver Cowdery's work with a divining rod by changing a revelation.

Response
Background
The original wording of the revelation along with revisions performed by Oliver Cowdery, William W. Phelps, Sidney Rigdon, Joseph Smith, John Whitmer, and another unidentified editor is recorded in the REVELATION BOOK 1 (April 1829-B [D&C 8]). The original revelation reads as follows:
...remember this is thy gift now this is not all for thou hast another gift which is the gift of working with the sprout Behold it hath told you things Behold there is no other power save God that can cause this thing of Nature to work in your hands. [1] (emphasis added)
Sidney Rigdon edited the passage to read like this:
...remember this is your gift now this is not all for you have another gift which is the gift of working with the rod Behold it has told you things Behold there is no other power save God that can cause this rod to work in your hands. (emphasis added)
In the Book of Commandments (the predecessor to the Doctrine and Covenants), the revelation underwent an additional revision by a publication committee of the First Presidency (Joseph Smith, Oliver Cowdery, and Frederick G. Williams). The Book of Commandments stated:
Chapter 7:3—Now this is not all, for you have another gift, which is the gift of working with the rod: behold it has told you things: behold there is no other power save God, that can cause this rod of nature, to work in your hands, for it is the work of God. (emphasis added)
In the 1835 Doctrine and Covenants, this was revised to read:
D&C 8:6–8—Now this is not all thy gift; for you have another gift, which is the gift of Aaron; behold, it has told you many things; Behold, there is no other power, save the power of God, that can cause this gift of Aaron to be with you. Therefore, doubt not, for it is the gift of God; and you shall hold it in your hands, and do marvelous works; and no power shall be able to take it away out of your hands, for it is the work of God. (1921 edition, 8:6–8.) (emphasis added)
Thus, "working with the sprout" and the "thing of Nature" were changed to "the gift of working with the rod," which was again later revised to "the gift of Aaron." It has been assumed on the basis of this that Oliver Cowdery was a "rodsman," or someone who used a divining rod to search for treasure, water, or other things hidden.
Evidence used to support this assertion is the fact that in 1801, a religious sect led by the Wood family enjoyed a brief popularity, and they sought for treasure with divining rods.[2] The Wood group was reportedly taught this skill by a counterfeiter/forger named either Winchell or Wingate. Winchell/Wingate had been a guest at the home of Oliver's father, William. Attempts have been made to tie William Cowdery to the Wood group, but there is no evidence that he had any connection with them aside from knowing Winchell/Wingate. As Richard L. Anderson observed:
An 1828 newspaper history of the Wood episode refers to neither the mysterious counterfeiter nor Cowdery. The main group of Middletown survivors of the 1800 period--"more than thirty men and women"--were interviewed up to 1860, and they said nothing of a counterfeiter or of Cowdery. The 1867 recollections of a minister who visited the group in the final weeks of their movement include mention of the counterfeiter but not Cowdery--when a disciple was asked where the criminal stayed, he answered: "He keeps himself secreted in the woods." Frisbie's own claims about the Cowdery connection to the Wood group are both unclear and unsupported. This is the patchwork of folklore, not tightly woven history.[3]
It is therefore not clear whether Oliver used a rod, and (if so) what he used it for. The critical association of Oliver's possible use of a rod with the activities of local "rodsmen" seeking treasure is used to imply that Oliver was also a treasure seeker.
What if the "rod of nature" was indeed a physical object?
If we presume, for the sake of argument, that the Book of Commandments revelation of 1829 did refer to a physical rod, it is useful to consider just what Oliver was told:
Oliver Cowdery's first revelation commanded him to lay aside the world and build the restored kingdom: "Seek not for riches but for wisdom, and behold, the mysteries of God shall be unfolded unto you, and then shall you be made rich. Behold, he that hath eternal life is rich" (D&C 6:7). Whatever prior use Oliver made of his "gift of working with the rod," this revelation directed him to heavenly treasure. Indeed, this first commandment names but one special power: "Thy gift" is "sacred and cometh from above." It is defined as the ability to "inquire" and "know mysteries which are great and marvelous." Thus Oliver is commanded to "exercise thy gift, that thou mayest find out mysteries, that thou mayest bring many to the knowledge of the truth, yea, convince them of the error of their ways." Thus his gift of knowledge of salvation will lead to the "greatest of all gifts," the "gift of salvation" (D&C 6:10-13).
Oliver's initial revelation closes with the command to seek heavenly "treasures" by assisting "in bringing to light, with your gift, those parts of my scriptures which have been hidden because of iniquity" (D&C 6:27). The revelation on the gift of the rod probably followed within a week. It continued the theme of learning ancient truth through translating: "Remember, this is your gift" (D&C 8:5). And it could be exercised by believing "you shall receive a knowledge concerning the engravings of old records" (D&C 8:1). Then a second promise was made:
Now this is not all, for you have another gift, which is the gift of working with the rod. Behold, it has told you things. Behold, there is no other power save God that can cause this rod of nature to work in your hands, for it is the work of God. And therefore whatsoever you shall ask me to tell you by that means, will I grant unto you, that you shall know.
But there were strict limits to this promise: "Trifle not with these things. Do not ask for that which you ought not. Ask that you may know the mysteries of God, and that you may translate all those ancient records."
So the "rod of nature" in Cowdery's "hands" would be a means of gaining revelation on doctrine.[4]
Thus, the alteration which describes the "rod" as "the gift of Aaron" clarifies the Lord's intent, and explains how Oliver and Joseph understood the matter. Aaron's rod was an instrument of power, but only insofar as God revealed and commanded its use. Such a perspective is a far cry from the "occult" links which the critics attempt to create:
D&C 8 approves a rod only for sacred information. It also suggests the rod that displayed God's power in the Egyptian plagues, in striking the rock for life-giving water or in calling down strength on Israel's warriors. That rod was a straight shaft, the shepherd's staff possessed by Moses at his call (Ex. 4:2-4). Used by both Moses and Aaron, it was foremost the "rod of God," also Moses' rod, but formally called the "rod of Aaron." It functioned as a visible sign of authority, just as Judah's "scepter" was a sign of divine kingship in Jacob's blessing or Elijah's staff held by the servant who went in his name. Thus the rod of Aaron was a staff of delegated agency, and the 1835 revision to "The gift of Aaron" suggests Oliver's spiritual power to assist Joseph Smith as Aaron assisted Moses.[5]
As Dallin H. Oaks remarked:
It should be recognized that such tools as the Urim and Thummim, the Liahona, seerstones, and other articles have been used appropriately in biblical, Book of Mormon, and modern times by those who have the gift and authority to obtain revelation from God in connection with their use. At the same time, scriptural accounts and personal experience show that unauthorized though perhaps well-meaning persons have made inappropriate use of tangible objects while seeking or claiming to receive spiritual guidance. Those who define folk magic to include any use of tangible objects to aid in obtaining spiritual guidance confound the real with the counterfeit. They mislead themselves and their readers.[6]
Conclusion
We know based upon the text of the revelation that Oliver possessed a gift of working with something alternately referred to as a "sprout," "thing of nature," or "rod of nature." We also know that the Lord approved of Oliver's use of this gift. The reference was later changed to the "gift of Aaron," but we can only speculate as to the exact reason why. We do not know if the "rod" referred to by Sidney Rigdon when he edited the revelation was referring to a divining rod, since there is no other record beyond the revelation itself that indicates this.
We do know that Oliver's gift had to do with receiving revelation, and that Oliver attempted to employ it during the period in which the Book of Mormon was being translated. We also know that Oliver's experience in attempting to translate produced one of the lasting lessons which continues to be taught in Church even today—the knowledge that one must study things out in their mind in order to know the truth of something.


http://en.fairmormon.org/Criticism_of_M ... nism/Index

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THE TIME WILL COME WHEN NO MAN OR WOMAN WILL BE ABLE TO ENDURE ON BORROWED LIGHT. EACH WILL HAVE TO BE GUIDED BY THE LIGHT WITHIN HIMSELF. IF YOU DO NOT HAVE IT, HOW CAN YOU STAND?
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Dansdone
Post  Post subject: Re: Changing the Word of God for fun and profit (prophet)  |  Posted: Mon Aug 01, 2011 5:27 pm
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“And now, behold, this shall you say unto him:—I the Lord am God, and I have given these things unto my servant Joseph…and he has a gift to translate the book, and I have commanded him that he shall pretend to no other gift, for I will grant him no other gift. And verily I say unto you, that wo shall come unto the inhabitants of the earth.…” —Book of Commandments, Chapter 4:2-3



When Joseph Smith produced the “Book of Abraham” in the Pearl of Great Price from an Egyptian funeral papyrus, Joseph felt compelled to change his wording in the BOC to accommodate his new gift to translate the Egyptian funeral papyrus. As one can see below the revelation has changed to cover the situation presented by the new book POGP..........The new revelation:



“And now, behold, this shall you say unto him—he who spake unto you, said unto you: I, the Lord, am God, and have given these things unto you, my servant Joseph Smith, Jun.…And you have a gift to translate the plates: and this is the first gift that I bestowed upon you; and I have commanded that you should pretend to no other gift until my purpose is fulfilled in this; for I will grant unto you no other gift until it is finished. Verily, I say unto you, that woe shall come unto the inhabitants of the earth.…” —Doctrine and Covenants, Section 5:2,4-5 12.

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Dansdone
Post  Post subject: Re: Changing the Word of God for fun and profit (prophet)  |  Posted: Mon Aug 01, 2011 6:08 pm
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More Fodder.........

David Whitmer 1887 All Believers In christ Pg. 49

“You have changed the revelations from the way they were first given and as they are to-day in the Book of Commandments, to support the error of Brother Joseph in taking upon himself the office of Seer to the church. You have changed the revelations to support the error of high priests. You have changed the revelations to support the error of a President of the high priesthood, high counselors, etc. You have altered the revelations to support you in going beyond the plain teachings of Christ in the new covenant part of the Book of Mormon.”

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Abish
Post  Post subject: Re: Changing the Word of God for fun and profit (prophet)  |  Posted: Mon Aug 01, 2011 6:23 pm
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Dansdone wrote:
More Fodder.........

David Whitmer 1887 All Believers In christ Pg. 49

“You have changed the revelations from the way they were first given and as they are to-day in the Book of Commandments, to support the error of Brother Joseph in taking upon himself the office of Seer to the church. You have changed the revelations to support the error of high priests. You have changed the revelations to support the error of a President of the high priesthood, high counselors, etc. You have altered the revelations to support you in going beyond the plain teachings of Christ in the new covenant part of the Book of Mormon.”


What good an angry apostate can say about Prophet of God or Church of Jesus Christ? NOTHING.
Who will believe an angry apostate? Answer: Another angry apostate
:-D

The language [of the Doctrine and Covenants], with the exception of the words actually spoken by heavenly beings, is the language of the Prophet. The ideas were given to Joseph Smith. He wrote them in the best language at his command. He was inspired at times by the loftiness of the ideals so that his language or words are far above that ordinarily used by a backwoods boy of that day.
The concepts and ideas were God's, while the wording was Joseph's. That he freely and openly edited them demonstrates that he did not consider them to be some type of fixed, inerrant text. :-D

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THE TIME WILL COME WHEN NO MAN OR WOMAN WILL BE ABLE TO ENDURE ON BORROWED LIGHT. EACH WILL HAVE TO BE GUIDED BY THE LIGHT WITHIN HIMSELF. IF YOU DO NOT HAVE IT, HOW CAN YOU STAND?
- Heber C. Kimball, 1856


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Dansdone
Post  Post subject: Re: Changing the Word of God for fun and profit (prophet)  |  Posted: Mon Aug 01, 2011 6:48 pm
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The D&C was changed in the examples I've shone, Just a few of many to cover his ass in the best language at his command. He was inspired at times by the loftiness of the ideals so that his language would fit the circumstances as they proved to be an embarrassment to him because of foolish mistakes that god would not have made. :-D

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Abish
Post  Post subject: Re: Changing the Word of God for fun and profit (prophet)  |  Posted: Mon Aug 01, 2011 6:50 pm
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Dansdone wrote:
The D&C was changed in the examples I've shone, Just a few of many to cover his ass in the best language at his command. He was inspired at times by the loftiness of the ideals so that his language would fit the circumstances as they proved to be an embarrassment to him because of foolish mistakes that god would not have made. :-D

I don't agree with your opinion
:-D

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THE TIME WILL COME WHEN NO MAN OR WOMAN WILL BE ABLE TO ENDURE ON BORROWED LIGHT. EACH WILL HAVE TO BE GUIDED BY THE LIGHT WITHIN HIMSELF. IF YOU DO NOT HAVE IT, HOW CAN YOU STAND?
- Heber C. Kimball, 1856


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Dansdone
Post  Post subject: Re: Changing the Word of God for fun and profit (prophet)  |  Posted: Mon Aug 01, 2011 7:05 pm
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Oh course you don't agree with me, I wouldn't expect that to happen :-D

My post makes sense! {:-D

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Dansdone
Post  Post subject: Re: Changing the Word of God for fun and profit (prophet)  |  Posted: Mon Aug 01, 2011 7:16 pm
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The angry apostate apostle David Whitmer, as Abish referred to him, made some good points and there are very real, accurate examples for everything he mentioned in his commentary. All well documented in long detail as having been changed in the Book Of Commandments.

Hundreds of pages even having been removed because of the conflict of doctrine contained in them. In 1921 68 pages out of section 5 were removed. Referred to as the “Lectures on Faith”

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Abinadi
Post  Post subject: Re: Changing the Word of God for fun and profit (prophet)  |  Posted: Mon Aug 01, 2011 10:09 pm
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Thanks, Sleepyhead and Dansdone, for the actual quotes and citations. I appreciate that you, at least, back up your claims with evidence rather than angry ad-hominems and private speculation. ("If the shoe fits....")

Not only did the texts of JS's revelations suffer extensive rewriting,
but they were written specifically to make significant man-made changes in mormon doctrines :confusion-helpsign: .
Truly the Mormon church of 1830 ( :angry-cussingargument: ) is nothing
like the mormon church of 1844 ( :angry-cussingargument: ), and neither of those is much
like the mormon church of 2011 ( :angry-cussingargument: )

-
not in doctrines and not in practices. :shifty:

One thing that has been "consistent" over the years
has been the church's doctrinal ( :text-bs:) inconsistency (i.e., :liar: ).

As the documentation demonstrates and the testimonies prove.


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Dipsnort
Post  Post subject: Re: Changing the Word of God for fun and profit (prophet)  |  Posted: Tue Aug 02, 2011 8:09 am
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Don't feed the troll. :handgestures-thumbdown:

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Abinadi
Post  Post subject: Re: Changing the Word of God for fun and profit (prophet)  |  Posted: Tue Aug 02, 2011 9:10 am
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Dipsnort wrote:
Don't feed the troll. :handgestures-thumbdown:
Heartless beast!
You must enjoy watching them starve for affirmation.


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Dipsnort
Post  Post subject: Re: Changing the Word of God for fun and profit (prophet)  |  Posted: Tue Aug 02, 2011 11:44 am
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Abinadi wrote:
Dipsnort wrote:
Don't feed the troll. :handgestures-thumbdown:
Heartless beast!
You must enjoy watching them starve for affirmation.

I sometimes enjoy watching their brain starved of logic but there comes a time when enough is enough and I just can't take it anymore. :frown:

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Last edited by Dipsnort on Tue Aug 02, 2011 3:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.


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Abinadi
Post  Post subject: Re: Changing the Word of God for fun and profit (prophet)  |  Posted: Tue Aug 02, 2011 2:27 pm
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"come entertain us.
so stupid it's contagious.
mess that i've been in.
i'll get off when you get in.
it never seems to end.
i just can't fake it anymore.
i just can't take and i've heard it all before...."


Unwritten Law
"Get Up"


"I know all the games you play,
And I'm gonna find a way to let you know....
'Cause I try and try to forget you girl,
But it's just so hard to do,
Every time you do that thing you do..."


The Wonders
"That Thing You Do!"


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