I haven't posted for a while but I got so mad couple days ago I just need to. I need your advice. I have a friend, a very dear friend, very loyal mormon, served her mission, got married somehow later than typical for mormons (29) to a man who joined the church because of her. The happy story slowly turned sour as he tried to exercise his 'patriarchal rights' ... not to mention he is abusive, and frankly, mentally not completely there. You know the type; very charming on the outside, his friends love him but a tyrant at home. I've listened to her stories for years.... physical and emotional abuse was a daily routine, manipulation, all that. She knew it was wrong yet all those years tried to forgive him as she “should as a christian”, give him a chance to change, teach him to be a better man. At times she'd thought about leaving but couldn't. She has master's in engineering, had a successful carrier before the marriage, then stayed home with the kids while he couldn’t keep a job. Without any details, literally living below poverty level and still being happy about it because she had her “dream family”. Now she became completely dependent on him, lost all confidence in herself. She was afraid to leave because she “wouldn’t be able to support herself.”

She talked to her bishop but nobody wanted to get involved beyond the typical “be patient, read scriptures and pray together.” Yeah, reading scriptures together will fix it all …Couple years ago she talked about some of her marital problems to another church leader (I’m not sure if it was someone in temple presidency, a mission president, someone like that without direct authority but high up). He called her stake president asking for disciplinary council for her husband – nothing ever happened.

Now, after years of suffering, blaming herself for what he did, searching for answers and inspiration, his suicidal attempt woke her up. Decided on separation, had no intentions of going back, and felt this was the answer she was looking for. Peaceful inside as God told her it’s over. Finally, right? All was good. That is, until she had an interview with a stake president and some of it obviously came out … he advised her to reconcile. The goody mormons she is, she believes the leaders always know what’s best for us. When she told me this, I was about ready to pick up the phone and call this jerk and he would not like what I had to say. I know what I’m dealing with so I wouldn’t tell her flat out her stake president has no clue about what’s going on and is only doing what’s best for the church: keeping a “happy” marriage that can be sealed in the temple … after her husband will become active and starts paying his tithing while church can say they do anything to keep families together. I knew her stake president back then when I lived in the area, I believe he has good intentions but just has no clue as he grew up in a good family and has a good family. Unless you experienced the psycho types, it’s hard to accept it can be real especially since they can be so charming to anyone on the outside and con anyone to believe their crooked reality.

I know there are several people here that were in the same situation when it comes to abusive marriages and marriage counseling by church leaders. What worked or didn’t work in your case when dealing with a TBM? I know I need to be careful about what I say when it comes to church leadership … I very softly explained why I think she should trust herself and not the stake president when it comes to her marriage but I feel on shaky grounds there. I would appreciate your stories if you are willing to share or recommendations. Maybe there are church articles that say divorce is ok or that personal revelation is more important than leaders council on personal matter (obviously, church is always right on anything else) … anything that may help her to deal with it within her church realm … or that may help me to help her.

Honestly, I still can’t believe it happen, it makes me want to scream …

Counselling in itself can be addictive. It is enjoyable and the counselled person is the centre of attention. Even in a counselling skills capacity I find people who would just talk to me all day, instead of getting on with whatever they should be doing.

It baffles me that church leaders, most of whom have little or no background in psychology or counseling, are offering marriage advice and help. Some of the bad advice I've heard from church leaders would be laughable if it weren't so pathetically wrong.

Nothing that church counselors did helped our situation.
In fact, they exacerbated it. We divorced.
it was a non-mormon counselor who kept me from taking my own life.

Mormonism is a black hole. It takes everything. It gives nothing.
Do all within your power to stay out of its gravity well.

Maybe the best thing you can do for her is convince her to at least get another opinion -- like from a real and EDUCATED professional in the field.

I've seen an awful lot of bad advice come out of the mouths of LDS leaders. That spiritual guidance they claim to have has given me some real gems over the years, like:
- eating sugar will keep you from baptizing people (heard on my mission from a Japanese mission president who obviously doesn't like sugar);
- masturbating will cause you to lose your memory (from BKP in a very famous little pamphlet given to me a long time ago, uh, I forget now exactly when or who... uh, let's see, what was I saying? Gees, I keep forgetting...)
- if you swim on your mission the devil will possess you (from my zone leader on my mission, who bore his testimony about it at zone conference -- and I snorted pretty loud trying to keep from laughing...)
- having premarital sex will cause your ears to fall off... (okay, I made that up, but I swear it isn't much worse than the crap they would tell us would happen!)

Anyway, have her get a second opinion -- maybe even from a professional who happens to be LDS. There are some out there, and frankly, I would at least trust one of those over her stupid bishop or stake president.

I found that Mormon Church marriage counseling was always the same:

Pay your tithing.
Pray together.
Attend all Church meetings.
Go to the temple.
Endure to the end.

And whalla, it will all work out!

My advice? Avoid any Church counseling - including LDS Social Services (dear God avoid them at all costs!)

Find a REAL marriage counselor and preferably someone who is NOT Mormon.

OMG neverTBM! I don't blame you for wanting to scream. This is truly a sad story - I'd like to scream myself about it. It makes me sad for your friend and sickened yet again that what the cult does to keep families together forever - despite one of the spouses being abusive.

Bastards.

Edit: Poor spelling and just plain pissed off at the cult.

I know, they believe god gave them power to know it all and always be right. Who cares about the horrors they make others to live.


Oh man, Abinadi, that must have been horrible. Sadly, they would never admit they did anything wrong ... because "it's all worth it for the kingdom." Jerks.


Funny ...
You and Infymus are right though about the professional counselor. If my friend decides to keep trying with her husband I'll talk to her about it. Right now I'm just happy she wants out. I told her many times over the years what I thought about the whole thing and suggested a counselor then but it is her decision after all. It makes it harder; I think I see what's happened more objectively than she does but it is her life. I can't force her or manipulate her just because she is being manipulated already and in a wrong way. I does hurt to see her that way.


Yes, all that in the name of keeping a family. I think that's why she keeps going back to her husband; she wants her kids to have father and a happy family. Fortunately, there are a lot of great men at all ages if you keep looking. I try to keep that hope alive. Dating in your 40s takes a little bit more effort than in your 20s --believe me I know -- but it's still possible and fun. There are so many people at this age who are divorced, who were through a lot, and have much better ideas and expectations of partnership that 20 year ago. That's a good thing for some of us

The Bible does not suggest that this woman stay with that man. On the contrary, the Bible advises that she leave him.

The apostle Paul wrote the saints in Corinth, "Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? And what communion hath light with darkness?" (2 Cor. 6:14, KJV).

Would Jesus want her to stay with a man who one day may kill her? Certainly not! From your description, her husband is unstable enough to do just that.

Reconciliation would be advisable only if he became a Christian and a true believer. That is unlikely. Many profess to be Christians who really are not. No Christian man would ever strike his wife.

The fear of not being able to support herself is an understandble fear. But if the man she's with is a physical and emotioinal abuser, she must get out.

There are homes for battered women. They'll help. Since he's violent that is the best prospect now. There are food pantries. She nor her children will starve. People do not starve in this country.

I have been homeless. Once for about 6 weeks in 1990. I lived in my car. Each day I showered at a public golf course's locker room.

Perhaps she has some valuables that can be sold. If there is a bank account, she should empty it. If she has a credit card, use it. Take the car even if there is just one, but leave him. If she has a car, sell it and get a place on a bus line if need be. Perhaps you can lend her some money. And maybe other friends could also lend her some.

There are jobs to be had regardless of what you read. Waitresses. Pizza places. Grocery stores.

Walmart hires regularly at about $300.00 per week. It would be best that she not put down on her applicatiion that she has a college degree when applying for jobs which do not require one. She'll just hear that bunk, "You're over qualified". This is no time for her to be too proud to take a lesser job. That will just be false pride. Employment is so high that she'll find people with college degrees doing menial jobs. She can clean houses for a living. I did it with my wife for 10 years and we made about $50,000.00 per year and only worked 4 to 5 hours a day. And I had an MBA. So what? I was sick of the business world and enjoyed the lack of stress in cleaning houses.

I once ran a 450 room hotel and had 30 maids reporting up through the ranks to me. I preferred being a "maid" after all that stress.

She will come out of this on the other end. All things pass. But if he kills her, then it will be too late--for them both and their children.

Those are the people who tried to take me away from my family and put me in a foster home. I was an unhappy 11 year old, very 'troubled' as my parents always described me as a youngster(I imagine they still do). Well, I went to my teacher one day and vented. I told him that I had become good friends with another boy in class(he's actually the first boy I remember having a crush on, haha), and so my teacher, probably meaning well, advised me to go over to this boy's house as much as possible. I agreed, and within days, the police was at my house and I was being taken out of class to talk to the LDS Social Services. Here's what I think happened:

My teacher contacted the boy's parents and talked with them about how unhappy I had said I was...probably asking them to be a little understanding if I was over there a lot. The family, who was LDS, probably was concerned and called LDS Social Services, then they came and interfered. I mean, dear God, I was just venting about how annoyed I'd been the past few weeks! But Social Services wouldn't tell the whole story, of course, and so even to this day my parents believe that I tried to be put in a foster home. It's quite interesting, when you think about it. Maybe if I had been, things would be different with me. But then again, I most likely would have been put in an LDS foster home, and that probably wouldn't be much better.

Bottom line is, avoid the LDS Social/Family Services at all costs. They'll interfere more than you would like, they'll manipulate you and twist the story whenever it means getting what they want. So much for the church building its foundation around the family.