It is something that has bothered me since I left the church, and feel dumb that I never thought about it while being TBM, but why is there not a single "average joe" in the quorum of the twelve. If these men are truly called to their positions directly from God, then why are they all successful business executives/presidents/medical directors.

It seems to me that there would be a vast majority of "normal" righteous men to choose from, and not just the elite one percenters would make up the quorum. Reading over their profiles, you never see "was an electrician, or plumber, or programmer" etc etc. Its always "served as executive, or president, or VP, or director/investor".

It seems to me that at least one out of twelve would come from more humble origins it they were truly divinely called. Unless God feels that only rich business presidents and executives are righteous enough to be the TOP RELIGIOUS LEADERS of his one true church.

Im sure that there is some apologist reason for this to be the case, although I never heard anyone talk about it at church. I remember reading scripture verses like: "its easier for a rich man to pass through the eye of a needle than to enter into the kingdom of god". I guess that one should read more like: "Its easier for a rich man to become an important mormon, and be more likely to enter the Celestial Kingdom".

We were also taught that one should seek for the kingdom of God before seeking riches. It seems that this rule does not apply here.

I bet Romney would be well on his way to being a GA if he weren't involved in politics. If you are curious how far it goes you can check out the profiles of all of the 12, the presidency of the seventy, and the seventies themselves on LDS.org. I read through most of them, and was amazed at the consistencies of CEO's, presidents, directors, etc that they ALL are. I guess there are no righteous enough average joes that are appropriately called to any position higher than bishop or maybe SP.

It's a health/wealth gospel.

The BoM lays out a cycle of righteousness, wealth, pride, downfall, poverty, humility, righteousness, wealth, pride ....

These powerful leaders have just learned how to avoid pride.
Because it's not bragging if it's true.
is it true?

peace

_________________
I resigned from the Church of THE Jesus Christ of the Latter Day Saints (Feb 2011)

"For nothing is secret, that shall not be made manifest; neither any thing hid, that shall not be known and come abroad." - Luke 8:17

The number of them who hail from Utah, graduated from a Utah university, and speak English as their first language is absurd considering the church's claims that it is a "worldwide church."

And of course they're all white. Man, Uchtdorf's inclusion rocked the world simply because he was foreign.

_________________
Challenging Mormonism

Its the money....

Its the power.....

Its the elite social positioning...

Its the near rock star status/agrandization received...

_________________
"When authority masquerades as a power, a simple question will unmask it."

"Just because you think, feel, or believe something is true, doesn't make it true!"

"The doubt of your faith, is not God testing you, but truth trying to emerge and free you."

WOW! synchronicity. I was going to start a thread on this same topic. One of the issues that caused me to question the Mo way back when was this very thing- I believe it was Infymus or somebody on The mormon Curtain that did a piece on how the General Authorities were all related or else friends of relatives. I think there is probably something in the archives, I'll look.

My brother was a High Priest, and his death is what triggered my journey out of Mormonism. He was the most loving and righteous man I ever knew. when he was dying in the LDS Hospital, Ezra Taft Benson was in there with him, three doors down. I saw the arrogant leadership of the church parade by for days without looking left or right, more concerned with who was Benson's successor than any hurting people. So I definitely have an interest in this. I'll do some looking, it is a good resource.

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"We establish no religion in this country, we command no worship, we mandate no belief, nor will we ever. Church and state are, and must remain separate."
Ronald Reagan

Well certainly looking at LDS church it's fairly safe to conclude that the Mormon god values business skills and wealth. Looking how LDS church is building malls, is acquiring business ventures and how LDS church has it's own Marriot business school the picture is very clear what Mormon God expects. Mormon god is a business god and as we all know the core values of making business are ... And then if one reads the Bible anyone can easily figure out how the values of the business world fall in line with the teachings of Jesus. After this it's pretty obvious how the LDS church is abusing the name of Jesus when they claim to be followers of him.

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“You have your way. I have my way. As for the right way, the correct way, and the only way, it does not exist.” - Friedrich Wilhelm Nietzsche

Oh come on guys......how obvious is all this....it's 'the blessings'......durrrrr. They been 'good' LDS ..... 'good' LDS get 'blessings'...... in the form of good jobs, loadsamoney, probably sumptuous mansions to live in & fancy dancy cars to drive around in......so they 'deserve' their lofty positions.....don't they?? A chicken & the egg thingie I think......

Not a bit like 'real' Christianity which is largely anti-materialist

Mammon not that far away from Mormon......

This is not meant to skew the thread, but there is plenty of materialism in "applied" Christianity versus Biblical austerity, but preachers like Joel Osteen, Pat Robertson, Pat Buchanan and Benny Hin and many more are all millionaires. Prosperity Gospel in Pentcostalism is alive and well, and whether they can justify it scripturally or not, I don't know.

_________________
"We establish no religion in this country, we command no worship, we mandate no belief, nor will we ever. Church and state are, and must remain separate."
Ronald Reagan

I apologize for the long copy/paste, but here is the piece from The Mormon Curtain:

"Some people say a person receives a position in this church through revelation, and others say they get it through inspiriation, but I say they get it through relation. If I hadn't been related to Heber C. Kimball, I wouldn't have been a damn thing in this church." - J.Golden Kimball after he was called to First Council of the Seventy in 1892

The First Presidency
Gordon B. Hinckley : -1st cousin of Joseph B Wirthlin
-1st cousin of Richard B Wirthlin
-nephew of former apostle Arza A Hinckley
-1st cousin, once removed of wife of Neal A. Maxwell
-1st cousin, twice removed of John H Groberg
-3rd cousin, once removed of James E Faust
wife: Marjorie Pay Hinckley -she is not related to any General Authorities

Thomas S. Monson : -2nd cousin, once removed of Graham W Doxey
-3rd cousin, once removed of wife of M Russell Ballard
-3rd cousin, once removed of Spencer J Condie
wife: Frances Beverly Johnson Monson -she is not related to any General Authorities

James E. Faust : -1st cousin, twice removed of former apostle Richard R Lyman
-3rd cousin of former seventy's president Marion D Hanks
-3rd cousin once removed of Gordon B Hinckley
-3rd cousin once removed of former seventy's president S Dilworth Young
-3rd cousin twice removed of former LDS president George Alber Smith
-great grand nephew of former apostle Spencer W Kimball
-2nd great grandson of former apostle Amasa M Lyman
wife: Ruth Wright Faust -she is related to four General Authorities

The Quorum of the Twelve

Boyd K. Packer : -3rd cousin of wife of C Max Caldwell
wife: Donna Edith Smith Packer
-3rd great granddaughter of apostle Luke S Johnson

L. Tom Perry : -nephew of former seventy's president Alma Sonne
-4th cousin once removed of Earl C Tingey
-4th cousin of wife of Richard C Edgley
wife: Barbara Taylor Dayton Perry
-2nd great grand dau of LDS President John Taylor

David B. Haight : -1st cousin once removed of wife of John C Carmack
-2nd cousin once removed of H Verlan Andersen former seventy
-3rd cousin of wife of John E Fowler
-3rd cousin of F Arthur Kay former seventy
wife: Ruby Mildred Olson Haight -she is not related to any General Authorities

Neal A. Maxwell : -first cousin twice removed of O Leslie Stone,former seventy
-wife: Colleen Fern Hinckley Maxwell
-1st cousin once removed from Gordon B Hinckley
-related to four other General Authorities

Russell M. Nelson : -4th cousin of Rulon G Craven
wife: Dantzel White Nelson
-she is not related to any General Authorities

Dallin H. Oaks : -2nd great grand nephew of Martin Harris Book of Mormon witness
1st wife: June Dixon - deceased (relatedness information forthcoming) 2nd wife: Kristen Meredith McMain - married 08/25/2000 - (relatedness info forthcoming)

M. Russell Ballard : -nephew of former patriarch Joseph F Smith
-grandson of former apostle Melvin J Ballard and Hyrum M Smith
-grand nephew of former LDS president Joseph Fielding Smith
-3rd cousin of emeritus patriarch Elder G Smith
-great grandson of LDS president Joseph F Smith
-2nd great grandson of presiding patriarch Hyrum Smith
-3rd great grandson of presiding patriarch Joseph Smith, Sr
wife: Barbara Bowen Ballard
-she is related to five General Authorities

Joseph B. Wirthlin : -son of former presiding bishop Joseph L Wirthlin
-brother of Richard B Wirthlin
-1st cousin of Gordon B Hinckley
wife: Elisa Young Rogers Wirthlin
-she is related to fourteen General Authorities

Richard G. Scott : -related to no General Authorities wife: deceased, was related to six General Authorities

Robert D. Hales : -3rd cousin of Carlos E Asay
-3rd cousin of Glenn L Pace
-3rd cousin once removed of Earl C Tingey
-4th cousin to six General Authorities
wife: Mary Elene Crandall Hales
-she is related to three General Authorities

Jeffrey R. Holland : -2nd,3rd cousin or grand nephew to nine General Authorities
wife: Patricia Terry Holland
-she is related to one General Authority

Henry B. Eyring : -1st,2nd or 3rd cousin to eight General Authorities or their wives
wife: Kathleen Johnson Eyring
-she is related to three General Authorities

_________________
"We establish no religion in this country, we command no worship, we mandate no belief, nor will we ever. Church and state are, and must remain separate."
Ronald Reagan

LOL this is funny how they might actually think that way. Most very "good" mormons that I know have never seen money like that in there whole life. My parents are as "good" as Mormons get, where's their fortune? I guess they were not "good" enough.

I think they call that self righteous dont they? That is a good describing word for a GA, self righteous.

Paladin, I like that list. So you don't only have to be a rich and successful person, you have to be in the family circle of trust. Who woulda thought it was kept all in the family like that.

But remember, the D&C says that that there is a law for every blessing that you receive and that if you keep the law, God MUST reward you.

These people have just been rewarded by God with many dead presidents, which I'm sure they've been baptized for.

_________________
I resigned from the Church of THE Jesus Christ of the Latter Day Saints (Feb 2011)

"For nothing is secret, that shall not be made manifest; neither any thing hid, that shall not be known and come abroad." - Luke 8:17

Between nepotism, business relations and the usual practice of promoting those who are team players as businesses do, The "standards" pretty much come down to what is typical in any business setting- the chosen few get selected, same as with any other business. I really do think at some point the church is going to have to put an Asian or black person into a slot, if they want any credibility as a worldwide church.

_________________
"We establish no religion in this country, we command no worship, we mandate no belief, nor will we ever. Church and state are, and must remain separate."
Ronald Reagan

The Mormon Church was always intended to be a family business. The Utah branch just ended up not being as blatant as the Reorganites who made the presidency a hereditary position for descendants of JS.

_________________
Tell my mother, tell my father
I've done the best I can
To make them realize this is my life
I hope they understand.
I'm not angry, I'm just saying
Sometimes goodbye is a second chance.
Shinedown, "Second Chance" The Sound of Madness

Dynastic Calvinism

The Lord blesses the righteous materially as well as spiritually.
(The Lord also tests the righteous with poverty and hardship.
Maybe prayer can get you from God-blessed poverty to God-blessed abundance.)

The Lord blesses the righteous spirits from the pre-existence with birth into families who have received and are living the Gospel.
(The Lord also blesses the righteous spirits from the pre-existence with birth into families who have not heard of the Gospel. Then they hear the Gospel and join the True Church. But since they were not born under the covenant, they are second-class citizens in comparison to The Authorities.)

Therefore, the most blessed are those who have a good income, normally through a profession such as business, law, economics, or the like; and who have family connections, already in place, deep and wide in the Church.

See how simple the Gospel is?

Don't Mormons consider the Founders of the US to have been inspired? Were they inspired when they wrote the consitituion? I take it as yes because they say the priesthood will defined in when it hangs by a thread. Were the founders inspired when they wrote the Declaration of Independence?



Mormons might have to say, "Not all men are created equal because they weren't all equally good before they were born... but it's possible that all intelligences were equal in the very beginning and they just grew differently long before people were born. So if you have a different access to Life, Liberty, church heirarchy, skin color, nose shape, financial reward, physical handicap, mental handicap, persuit of happiness or are even born a slave, then we know it was because your body in inhabited by a lesser spirit that is bringing these problems on you and it's your own damn fault. Remember, even Gods need servants in the next life so the poor and destitute will likely be slaves/ministering angels for all eternity."

It makes me want to write a Declaration of Independence from the LDS.

Peace

_________________
I resigned from the Church of THE Jesus Christ of the Latter Day Saints (Feb 2011)

"For nothing is secret, that shall not be made manifest; neither any thing hid, that shall not be known and come abroad." - Luke 8:17

Awesome. I copy/pasted this into Word.

_________________
"We establish no religion in this country, we command no worship, we mandate no belief, nor will we ever. Church and state are, and must remain separate."
Ronald Reagan

Many of the requirements are same for stake positions. Need to be successful (materially), do not question authorities, do what you are told, be willing to what it takes to promote the church, served a mission, paid tithing, have a temple recommend, do not cause waves in or out of the church. For apostles/general authorities, must have an "in" person who can get you in. It's about connections.