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insanad
Post  Post subject: Re: Under the Banner of Heaven  |  Posted: Sun Jul 19, 2009 11:14 am
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One story I read about John D. Lee (the great hero and founder of Fort Harmony!!) is that he took several of the little children into his home(s) and when one three yr. old girl commented that one of JD Lee's wives was wearing her dead mommy's dress John D. Lee kicked the child in the head to silence her. She was reported to have an "Addled brain" and unreputable testimony after that.

I was raised from the time I was 12 to 19 in Utah and never once heard any mention of the Mountain Meadows Massacre in all that time. The controversy is still so taboo that my own children did not hear about it in any of their state history classes. One would think such a horrific event would at least make a paragraph of mention in the books but it was either glossed over or never mentioned at all. I was in my late 20s and living in Calif. the first time I heard about it.

The irony is that it involved people in numerous communities, Parowan, Paraguhna, Cedar City, Ivins, Washington, St. George, Santa Clara, Enterprise, Hurricane, Beaver, Cove Fort, and of course SLC where BY and his henchmen participated in the coverups and possibly the initial order to raid and kill the people but because of blood oaths, fear, secrecy, revisionist history, and the twisted machinations of the heirarchy and culture it remains something the locals will flat out deny or minimize as "A little kerfuckle that got out of hand.".

It's that spirit of conspiracy and cover up that still prevails among many LDS and so the most frightening aspect is that dark secrets and coverups will continue. We see it in situations where sexual and physical abuse take place in families and ward leaders. We see it in their financial dealings, in their obfuscation and blatant denial of facts that are brought out in the press or involvement in dark shennanigans like Prop H8.

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heyethan
Post  Post subject: Re: Under the Banner of Heaven  |  Posted: Sun Jul 19, 2009 12:03 pm
insanad wrote:
One story I read about John D. Lee (the great hero and founder of Fort Harmony!!) is that he took several of the little children into his home(s) and when one three yr. old girl commented that one of JD Lee's wives was wearing her dead mommy's dress John D. Lee kicked the child in the head to silence her. She was reported to have an "Addled brain" and unreputable testimony after that.

I was raised from the time I was 12 to 19 in Utah and never once heard any mention of the Mountain Meadows Massacre in all that time. The controversy is still so taboo that my own children did not hear about it in any of their state history classes. One would think such a horrific event would at least make a paragraph of mention in the books but it was either glossed over or never mentioned at all. I was in my late 20s and living in Calif. the first time I heard about it.

The irony is that it involved people in numerous communities, Parowan, Paraguhna, Cedar City, Ivins, Washington, St. George, Santa Clara, Enterprise, Hurricane, Beaver, Cove Fort, and of course SLC where BY and his henchmen participated in the coverups and possibly the initial order to raid and kill the people but because of blood oaths, fear, secrecy, revisionist history, and the twisted machinations of the heirarchy and culture it remains something the locals will flat out deny or minimize as "A little kerfuckle that got out of hand.".

It's that spirit of conspiracy and cover up that still prevails among many LDS and so the most frightening aspect is that dark secrets and coverups will continue. We see it in situations where sexual and physical abuse take place in families and ward leaders. We see it in their financial dealings, in their obfuscation and blatant denial of facts that are brought out in the press or involvement in dark shennanigans like Prop H8.


I ought to read this. I've just started reading Into The Wild. I loved the film and I assume I'll love the book even more. jon krakauer seems like an interesting guy. a very genuine guy from what I've read about him.


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Sirnya
Post  Post subject: Re: Under the Banner of Heaven  |  Posted: Sun Jul 19, 2009 10:58 pm
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The first l ever heard of the MMM was a program on tv directly after General Conference. l think it was the first time my parents ever heard of it too, they passed it off saying it probably got a lot of it's resources from anti-mormon propaganda and that it was not telling the full story. :roll:

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insanad
Post  Post subject: Re: Under the Banner of Heaven  |  Posted: Mon Jul 20, 2009 9:23 am
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There are numerous accounts of the MMM and I've only read about three of them. It took almost 50 yrs. after the event for anyone to piece together enough details to even make a coherent chronology of the events. The secrecy and rumors were so twisted that few things could be validated, other than that many people died in a violent way on Utah soil.

For me, the continued portion of this crime is the blatant denial and marginalizing that the devout LDS, especially in S. Utah will do to absolve their own ancestors and church leaders from responsibility. It's that level of denial that makes them prime for denial of many other twisted secrets that occur in present day families and church leaders.

One of the things that the LDS could do to help heal this great rift is to aknowledge that LDS leaders ordered and sanctioned the murders and that the culture of fear was fostered by the very oppressive theocracy that existed in Brigham Young's reign. They still feign modest apologies, trivial admittance and vague details regarding the chain of heirarchy that instigated this horrific event. It's sort of like saying, "I'm sorry you were so offended when your grandmother claimed I raped her. In my recollection, she asked for it because she bent over to tie her shoe.".

Any of these books would make a riveting read. I read the one by Josiah Gibbs and also the original source for almost all the other books by Juanita Brooks. Both were a bit grueling to read because of the extensive cross referencing done but those details do give credence to their research and can be validated and triangulated in a variety of ways. It's difficult to not conclude that the culture of the day in a theocracy that existed in Utah Territory under Brigham Youngs rule led to the mindset that gave these men cause to murder men, women, and children and then loot their belongings for their own gain.

http://www.mtn-meadows-massacre-descend ... s_MMM.html
Quote:
OtherBooks

Mountain Meadows Massacre: by Josiah Gibbs

Red Water: A novel by Judith Freeman

The Mountain Meadows Massacre: by Juanita Brooks

Mormonism Unveiled or Confession of John D. Lee

And Brigham Young: By John D. Lee

John D. Lee: Zealot, Pioneer Builder, Scapegoat:

By Juanita Brooks

Under the Banner of Heaven: A Story of Violent Faith
By John Krakauer

Videos of the 1999 re-burial and dedication services:
Available at the Carroll County Historical Society:

obtain copies at: PO box 249, Berryville, AR 72616

Additional Interesting MMM links and limited geneology sites:

http://www.arkansasfamilies.net {Information on Carroll Co. ARK & the massacre}


I've said it before, but to put all this in perspective of the times and to balance the horrors of the Mormons against what was going on elsewhere in the US, this event took place in the same decade and barely made the news:

Battle of Bear River

The physical location where the conflict took place.Major McGarry and the first cavalry units of the 2nd California Cavalry Regiment arrived at the battle scene at 6:00 a.m., just as dawn was breaking over the mountains. Due to the weather conditions and deep snow, it took some time for Connor to organize his soldiers into a battle line. The artillery pieces never did make it to the battle as they got caught in a snow drift six miles from the Shoshone encampment.[44]

Chief Sagwitch noted the approach of the American soldiers when he said, according to his grandson Moroni Timbimboo, "Look like there is something up on the ridge up there. Look like a cloud. Maybe it is a steam come from a horse. Maybe that's them soldiers they were talking about"[50] Soon afterward, the first shots of this incident occurred.

Initially Connor tried a direct frontal offensive against the Shoshoni positions, but was soon overwhelmed with return gunfire from the Shoshone. It was during this initial assault that most of the direct combat related casualties occurred to the California Volunteers.[citation needed]

After temporarily retreating and regrouping, Connor sent McGarry and several other smaller groups into flanking maneuvers attacking the village from the sides and from behind, with a line of infantry that stood to block any attempt by the Shoshone to flee from the battle.[citation needed]

After about two hours, the Shoshone had run out of ammunition. According to some later reports, some Shoshone were seen attempting to cast lead ammunition during the middle of the battle, and had died with the molds still in their hands. When the ammunition ran out for the Shoshoni warriors, the battle quickly turned into a massacre.[citation needed]


[edit] Massacre and actions of U.S. soldiers
As the Shoshone were reaching desperate measures to fight off the U.S. Army, including the use of tomahawks and archery, the soldiers seemed to lose all sense of control and discipline. After most of the men were killed, soldiers proceeded to rape and molest the women of the encampment, and many of the children were also shot and killed. In some cases, soldiers held the feet of infants by the heel and "beat their brains out on any hard substance they could find." Those women who refused to submit to the soldiers were shot and killed. One local resident, Alexander Stalker, noted that at this time many soldiers pulled out their pistols and shot several Shoshoni people at point blank range. The soldiers also deliberately burned almost everything they could get their hands on, especially the dwelling structures that the Shoshone had been sleeping in, and killing anybody they found to be still inside.[47]


[edit] Casualties and immediate aftermath
While the death toll among the Shoshoni people was very large, there were some survivors of the experience. Most notable was Chief Sagwitch, who was able to help gather the remaining survivors and attempt to keep his community alive. Sagwitch himself was shot twice in the hand and attempted to flee on horseback only to have the horse shot out from under him. Eventually he ran down the ravine and tumbled into the Bear River near a hot spring, floating in some brush until nightfall.

Sagwitch's son, Beshup Timbimboo, was shot at least seven times but somehow survived and lived long enough to be rescued by family members. Other members of the band somehow hid in the willow brush of the Bear River, or tried to act as if they were dead. After the battle was considered over by the Army officers, the soldiers returned to their temporary encampment near Franklin. This gave Sagwitch and the rest of the Shoshone the opportunity to retrieve the wounded and build a fire for those that were still alive.[51]

The residents of Franklin opened their homes to the wounded soldiers that night, and brought in blankets and hay into the church meetinghouse for the rest of the soldiers to avoid exposure to the cold. Connor also hired several residents of Franklin to hitch up sleighs and help bring the wounded back to Salt Lake City.[citation needed]

The California Volunteers lost 27 soldiers, including five officers. The Shoshone bands lost between 200 and 400, including at least 90 women and children, with the official U.S. Army report listing 272 dead.[citation needed] In his 1911 autobiography, Danish emigrant Hans Jasperson claims to have walked among the bodies, counting 493 dead Shoshones.[1]

In 1918, Sagwitch's son Be-shup, Frank Timbimboo Warner, stated that "half of those present got away" and that 156 were killed. He went on to say that two brothers and a sister-in-law "lived", as well as many who later lived at the Washakie, Utah settlement, the Fort Hall reservation, in the Wind River country, and elsewhere.[52

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Life Rocks
Post  Post subject: Re: Under the Banner of Heaven  |  Posted: Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:38 pm
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What really kills me,(no pun intended) is that no matter what information comes up about the Church that doesn't gel with the Church's clearly sanitized version is that the members can't accept that their hiding the facts and truth about their history actually diminishes the likelihood that the Church is what it says it is.

I just heard on the television from one of the actual astronauts who walked on the moon an expression that makes so much sense.

"The truth needs no defense."

That sure makes sense to me.

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Rainfeather
Post  Post subject: Re: Under the Banner of Heaven  |  Posted: Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:57 pm
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Quote:
"The truth needs no defense."


Yeah, no kidding.

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Abinadi
Post  Post subject: Re: Under the Banner of Heaven  |  Posted: Mon Jul 20, 2009 10:55 pm
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insanad wrote:
One of the things that the LDS could do to help heal this great rift is to aknowledge that LDS leaders ordered and sanctioned the murders and that the culture of fear was fostered by the very oppressive theocracy that existed in Brigham Young's reign. They still feign modest apologies, trivial admittance and vague details regarding the chain of heirarchy that instigated this horrific event. It's sort of like saying, "I'm sorry you were so offended when your grandmother claimed I raped her. In my recollection, she asked for it because she bent over to tie her shoe.".

Insanad, I do not consider that even a feigned apology. It is no kind of apology at all. Until I hear a PROPHET say he APOLOGIZES for the CRIMES committed by Mormons under the direction of BRIGHAM YOUNG, there is no apology!
What they "apologize" for is "the misunderstanding between Mormons and nonmormons". I think the massacred understood very well what was happening to them, and the Mormons understood very well what they were doing. I see no sign of "misunderstanding". I challenge the Church to come up with some evidence of "misunderstanding".
I challenge the church to come up with some REASON why they should be excused frem APOLOGIZING for their MURDERS of innocents, and the way they treated the children then and later.
Maybe Monson can give us a sweet anecdote about it all.


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insanad
Post  Post subject: Re: Under the Banner of Heaven  |  Posted: Tue Jul 21, 2009 8:23 am
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Abinadi, I'm sorry that the word feigned was not adequate. I'm also sorry that some may have misunderstood the gravity of the word. I'm sorry that some people are offended when they are stripped of their own protection after a three day siege and I'm sorry they were offended when they were shot and hacked to death by A FEW people who misunderstood that it MIGHT slightly bother the people they were shooting and hacking. It seems that SOME People just can't take a joke. Those Bakers and Fanchers clearly had no sense of humor about what was just good ol' funnin. Their decendents just need to get over it. After all, it was just murder, theft, abduction, and a little larceny. I'm sorry they continue to be offended by what their ancestors probably brought on themselves.

For the record, the church has actually apologized but still won't connect the act to orders from Brigham Young, using the locals as the scapegoats for what was in essence a territory wide atmosphere of fear and contempt for anything outside their beliefs. They still won't connect the cult behaviors and group think to the way the church still fosters such chicken little fear in it's people.

Quote:
MOUNTAIN MEADOWS - A Mormon apostle, speaking Tuesday at the 150th anniversary memorial service for victims of the Mountain Meadows Massacre, apologized for the church's role, expressing "profound regret for the massacre."

In a statement considered groundbreaking, Elder Henry B. Eyring, a member of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, said new research shows local Mormon leaders were responsible for recruiting Paiute Indians to participate in the crime during which 120 men, women and children of the Fancher-Baker wagon train, en route to California from Arkansas, were brutally killed by a group of Mormon militia members and some Paiute allies, although the Paiutes' participation remains disputed.

"What was done here long ago by members of our church represents a terrible and inexcusable departure from Christian teaching and conduct," said Eyring, who choked up while reading a statement delivered on behalf of the First Presidency of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. "We cannot change what happened, but we can remember and honor those who were killed here."

The words, "we're sorry," were not part of the statement, but Richard Turley Jr., the LDS Church's managing director of family and church history and co-author of the forthcoming book, Massacre at Mountain Meadows, insisted after the ceremony that the statement was meant to be an apology.

''[The church] is deeply, deeply sorry,'' he said. ''What happened here was horrific.''

The apology went out to descendants of victims, but also to those of survivors and perpetrators.

"Many of those who carried out the massacre were haunted all their lives by what they did and saw on that unforgettable day. They and their relatives have also suffered under a heavy burden of guilt," Eyring said. ''No doubt divine justice will impose appropriate punishment."

The service, attended by about 400 people, began as an antique wagon, driven by Arkansas descendants and pulled by two Belgian work horses, wound its way down to the memorial grave site. Behind the wagon were descendants carrying flags bearing the names of the 29 families who were massacred in this valley that was a popular stop along the Old Spanish Trail.

Hanging from the fence surrounding the memorial about an hour's drive southwest of Cedar City were 120 crosses representing those who died in the massacre, plus another 17 adorned with red ribbons to represent the children who survived.

Onlookers watched the procession, snapping pictures and filming with hand-held recorders. Some wiped away tears, while several others sobbed openly and embraced. They wept for people they'd never known but whose memories they and their families have held onto for decades.

The bloodbath in this meadow has stood out as perhaps Utah's, and the LDS Church's, darkest and most disputed chapter. Descendants, in varying degrees, have cried out for apologies, recognition and protection of their ancestors' stories. So while the people in the audience heard Eyring's words and viewed them as progress, few seemed to hear an outright apology.

Historian Will Bagley, who wrote Blood of the Prophets: Brigham Young and the Massacre at Mountain Meadows, appreciated the expression of contrition to the Paiutes, but he felt the church -- as an institution -- fell short in owning up to its culpability.

''I don't think shoving it off on local [Mormon] leadership is an apology,'' he said. ''Did you hear an 'I'm sorry?' ''

Added Priscilla Dickson, 60, of St. George, a descendant of the Tackett family, which was among the emigrants, ''Simply saying 'I'm sorry,' would go a long way.' "

Patty Norris of the Arkansas-based Mountain Meadows Massacre Descendants organization referred to the statement as an ''almost apology.''

''I don't think they came right out and apologized, but I did feel like it was an apology,'' said Norris, whose organization represents descendants of child survivors of the massacre. ''It's closer than anything we've ever had, and I appreciated at least, the effort.''

The scars of that time have been long-lasting for the Paiutes, said Lora Tom, a representative of the Paiute Nation.

"For 150 years no one asked for our account," she said.

Tom, whose remarks elicited a standing ovation, said long-perpetuated lies faulting her ancestors have hurt Paiute youth who've grown up reading about this in history books. She said her ancestors had remained silent because they were trying to survive. They feared speaking up because they relied on local Mormons.

''That was a time not to confront this story, but now is the time," she said. The Paiutes "have kept to themselves for too long . . . This is the beginning for us. Let us begin together."

Eyring's statement offered a "separate expression of regret" to the Paiutes, "who have unjustly borne for too long the principal blame for what occurred during the massacre."

While the extent of the Paiutes' involvement is disputed, Eyring said church leaders now believe they ''would not have participated without the direction and stimulus provided by local church leaders and members.''

New research, to be included in Turley's book, which will be released in coming months, "enabled us to know more than we ever have known about this unspeakable episode. The truth, as we have come to know it, saddens us deeply," he said.


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Abinadi
Post  Post subject: More from Will Bagley, courtesy of Utah Lighthouse Ministry  |  Posted: Tue Jul 21, 2009 9:01 am
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Thanks, Insanad.
Hey, I wasn't at all upset at your for using "feigned".
I just took it as a starting point to rage for a minute or two. :)
It's the Morg that upset me.
I consider you and one or two others our resident experts on MMM.

Some years ago, I read some announcement from the church saying it was terrible what happened at MM. But I saw that they weren't accepting any responsibility.

Thank you for the post. I had not read a report on that, or if I had, I had forgotten. (I have the privilege of enjoying senior moments from time to time. ;) ) But even now the report falls short. "What happened here was horrific" does not carry the same weight as "What we did here was horrific." I'm going to quote from Utah Lighthouse. It's the full article sans footnotes, so there's repetition of what you've written:

http://www.utlm.org/newsletters/no109.htm#Massacre wrote:
Mountain Meadows Massacre
150 Years Later
"Halt! Do your duty!"

With that command scores of zealous LDS priesthood leaders and followers, along with a few Indians, from the Cedar City, Utah, area fired on at least 140 unarmed, non-Mormon men, women and children. The killings were over in a matter of minutes, sparing only 17 or 18 children under the age of eight.2Earlier that morning several Mormons, led by John D. Lee, diabolically entered the emigrant wagon train under a white flag and convinced them to surrender their arms in exchange for an LDS escort of safe passage through Indian territory.

The gentile wagon train, composed mainly of Methodists and Presbyterians from Arkansas on their way to California, seemed doomed from the start. The news of the murder of beloved LDS Apostle Parley P. Pratt in Arkansas (by a jealous husband whose wife had left him to become Pratt's 12th wife) seemed to be the final straw for the Mormons. This event, coupled with the tensions over federal troops then approaching the Utah Territory, President Brigham Young's declaration of martial law, lingering bitterness about mistreatment of LDS in Missouri and Illinois, recent sermons by President Young about "blood atonement" and inflammatory sermons during the Mormon reformation period led to the slaughter known as the Mountain Meadows Massacre on September 11, 1857. As Will Bagley observed: "Mountain Meadows was a crime of true believers."

This year marks the 150th anniversary of the massacre and has been commemorated by various events. On September 11th a memorial service was conducted at the site of the massacre, now owned by the LDS Church. They provided a pavilion, pulpit, microphone, chairs, security guards, port-a-potties and a luncheon.

Besides various speakers from the families involved, LDS Apostle Henry Eyring offered his sincere "regret" to the descendents of those killed. The Salt Lake Tribune reported on the event:

A Mormon apostle, speaking Tuesday at the 150th anniversary memorial service for victims of the Mountain Meadows Massacre, apologized for the church's role, expressing "profound regret for the massacre." ...

"What was done here long ago by members of our church represents a terrible and inexcusable departure from Christian teaching and conduct," said Eyring, who choked up while reading a statement delivered on behalf of the First Presidency of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.... The words, "we're sorry," were not part of the statement, but Richard Turley Jr., the LDS Church's managing director of family and church history and co-author of the forthcoming book, Massacre at Mountain Meadows, insisted after the ceremony that the statement was meant to be an apology.

"[The church] is deeply, deeply sorry,'' he said. "What happened here was horrific.'' ...

The service, attended by about 400 people, began as an antique wagon, driven by Arkansas descendants and pulled by two Belgian work horses, wound its way down to the memorial grave site. Behind the wagon were descendants carrying flags bearing the names of the 29 families who were massacred in this valley that was a popular stop along the Old Spanish Trail.

Hanging from the fence surrounding the memorial about an hour's drive southwest of Cedar City were 120 crosses representing those who died in the massacre, plus another 17 adorned with red ribbons to represent the children who survived....

The bloodbath in this meadow has stood out as perhaps Utah's, and the LDS Church's, darkest and most disputed chapter. Descendants, in varying degrees, have cried out for apologies, recognition and protection of their ancestors' stories. So while the people in the audience heard Eyring's words and viewed them as progress, few seemed to hear an outright apology.

Historian Will Bagley... felt the church—as an institution—fell short in owning up to its culpability. ("LDS apostle voices 'regret' for massacre," Salt Lake Tribune, Sept. 12, 2007, p. A12)

The LDS Church made a point of the fact that they did not issue an apology. Paul Foy of the Associated Press reported:

Church leaders were adamant that the statement should not be construed as an apology. "We don't use the word 'apology.' We used 'profound regret,'" church spokesman Mark Tuttle told The Associated Press. (Chicago Tribune, Sept. 11, 2007)


The families of the victims are also petitioning for the burial site to be designated as a national historic landmark.

The massacre was discussed this spring in the new four- hour PBS program "The Mormons."7 This year also saw the release of the full-length motion picture "September Dawn," a fictionalized account of the murders.

While the movie was not all that we had hoped for we were glad to see Brigham Young's "blood atonement" sermons and the massacre brought to the public's attention. Even the LDS Church seems to have realized it couldn't avoid talking about the massacre this year.

In an unprecedented move, the church posted on its official web site as early as June an article on the massacre scheduled to appear in the September Ensign. In it LDS historian Richard Turley acknowledges that many of the Mormon charges against the emigrants were false. He writes:

Some traditional Utah histories of what occurred at Mountain Meadows have accepted the claim that poisoning also contributed to conflict—that the Arkansas emigrants deliberately poisoned a spring and an ox carcass near the central Utah town of Fillmore, causing illness and death among local Indians. According to this story, the Indians became enraged and followed the emigrants to the Mountain Meadows, where they either committed the atrocities on their own or forced fearful Latter-day Saint settlers to join them in the attack. Historical research shows that these stories are not accurate.

While the article repeats the charge that someone in the wagon train had boasted he helped kill LDS founding prophet Joseph Smith and that other members of the wagon train were threatening to join the federal troops in fighting the Mormons, it must be remembered that these accounts were given by LDS men involved in the massacre. One is left to wonder if these charges were simply invented to give an excuse for the attack. Juanita Brooks observed:

Whatever the details, the fact remains that the entire company was betrayed and murdered, an ugly fact that will not be downed. Certainly, when the facts are marshaled, there is not justification enough for the death of a single individual.

Mormons will often try to shift the blame to the Paiute Indians of Southern Utah, that the attack was their idea and they coerced the Mormons to participate. However, Turley explains that it was the other way around:

The generally peaceful Paiutes were reluctant when first told of the plan. Although the Paiutes occasionally picked off emigrants' stock for food, they did not have a tradition of large-scale attacks. But Cedar City's leaders promised them plunder and convinced them that the emigrants were aligned with "enemy" troops who would kill Indians along with Mormon settlers.

While there is insufficient evidence to prove Brigham Young directly ordered the massacre, he certainly set the stage for the event and aided in its cover-up.

That Young was not upset with those who perpetrated the massacre is demonstrated by the following points. First, Brigham Young granted John D. Lee, the only man to later be tried and executed for the massacre, three additional plural wives after the event. 13 Juanita Brooks, John Doyle Lee: Zealot, Pioneer Builder, Scapegoat, p. 230 and Appendix.The second example is Brigham Young's treatment of the 1859 rock memorial topped with a large wooden cross erected by U.S. Army Major J. L. Carleton. While visiting the site in 1861, Brigham Young orchestrated the destruction of the monument. Bagley comments:

The monument was beginning to tumble down, but the wooden cross and its inscription, "Vengeance is mine: I will repay, saith the Lord," still stood above the rock cairn.

Brigham Young read the verse aloud, altering the text to fit his mood: "Vengeance is mine saith the Lord; I have repaid." Dudley Leavitt recalled how Young directed the destruction of the monument so that all present could deny that he had ordered it. "He didn't say another word. He didn't give an order. He just lifted his right arm to the square, and in five minutes there wasn't one stone left upon another. He didn't have to tell us what he wanted done. We understood."

We offer the following article by Will Bagley to help the reader better understand the historical context in which these events occurred.

I recommend visiting this page of UTLM.ORG (http://www.utlm.org/newsletters/no109.htm#Massacre), reading the footnotes to the above, and read following that article "A paper presented at International Conference of the Center for Studies on New Religions in Salt Lake City and Provo (Utah), June 20-23, 2002, Salt Lake City & Provo" by Will Bagley.

If I've reposted something already posted, I don't apologize. :evil:
MMM yet awaits being put to rest.


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insanad
Post  Post subject: Re: Under the Banner of Heaven  |  Posted: Tue Jul 21, 2009 9:22 am
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Well Abinadi, you know me well enough by now to know that I was teasing you in my feigned apology (actually Deep regret) at the word feigned.

I read several accounts about the rumor of poisonings at Fillmore (actually Koosharem creek) and several Paiutes from that area were interviewed at the time and said that they did NOT have any incidents of their own people or horses poisoned and denied that they'd had any problems with the travellers.

What did abound was the edict from Brigham Young that ANYONE helping or selling goods, even at grossly inflated prices to the travelers would be severely dealt with and then he added to that that they should "Worry the group till they leave our borders". By this I suspect rumors and various contentions would have been sanctioned by the church body.

Having lived in a small Utah town for many years I know firsthand how easily brought to a frothing angry mob some of these folks can be and if someone says the sky is falling, they'll start running around to warn their neighbors and then look for someone to blame for the tree branch that blew onto the top of their pickup and dented it.

The spirit of fear and willingness to give over common sense to the leaders of the LDS church still prevails. We don't have a MMM to look forward to because I think most of them know they could never cover up such an event again, but in the same way the "Saints" shared and exaggerated rumors about the Baker Fancher parties, they share and exaggerate stories about the GLBT community and will in essence gather together to massacre their civil rights and then blame others, justify it, or outright deny any involvement in the event.

What happened is horrific but what continues to happen culturally is still a reflection of an oppressive bigoted cult. Modern day Mormons need only look at what's happening in their own time to realize they behave like barbarians.

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Abinadi
Post  Post subject: Re: Under the Banner of Heaven  |  Posted: Tue Jul 21, 2009 5:48 pm
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insanad wrote:
"Worry the group till they leave our borders".

Not so long ago, an apostle - don't remember which one, probably still alive - praised the pioneer Mormons who formed "whittling brigades". He seemed to dismiss them as well-meaning kids. I've never seen a breakdown of their ages. I'd like to. They would surround someone they didn't like, and "whittle and whistle". As they whittled, they would make sure their knives went in the direction of the person they wanted to scare out of town. When asked why they were doing that, they just whistled. Those who felt uncomfortable with ten or twenty armed men waving their knives at them, left mormonland. And who would feel comfortable in that situation? Not only did BY permit it, today's "apostles" praise it. I suppose they'd like to bring it back. No harm done. Today some sheriffs are required to have themselves tasered before they can use a taser. Maybe mormon prophets and apostles should be required to experience those things they say it's okay for nonmembers and jack mormons to experience. Mormon tasering: "whittling", blood atonement for adultery and apostasy (questioning the prophet is a sign of apostasy!), discuss their sexual relations with their bishops, etc. If they would, there might be less mormon-tasering going on.


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Life Rocks
Post  Post subject: Re: Whittling brigades?  |  Posted: Wed Jul 22, 2009 10:33 am
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The more I learn about the Church's secrets, the wierder and scarier it gets.

Yikes!

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insanad
Post  Post subject: Re: Under the Banner of Heaven  |  Posted: Wed Jul 22, 2009 10:46 am
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They don't need a whittling brigade any more when they can use complete social and familial ostricization to run someone off or at least garner their silence by shunning. I keep thinking I'm paranoid about all this but I keep reading about so many who have experienced the exact same thing I went through and I know it's a cult-ural tradition. I've heard the discussions in RS meetings and discussion boards where they blatantly suggest that anyone ruffling the waters should be ignored, shut out, cut off, divorced, etc. to keep them from defaming the church or influencing the children.

Ten years ago I was a favored aunt and the koolaid mom in my neighborhood. I was a Primary teacher and had tons of fun with the kids in my charge. Most of those kids still consider me one of the best teachers they had but as soon as I left the church all the admiration and affection was jerked away from me and I became a social pariah, a dangerous influence, and the adults were quick to believe the most outrageous things about me.

I think only one niece will allow me around her kids now and some of the others will hardly talk to me. My own kids have accused me of teaching their toddlers bad stuff even when I wasn't around the kid to influence them. Somehow I went from the koolaid mom to the demon from Hell, just by discovering that the church was based on lies.

No, they don't need a whittling brigade when a whisper campaign will do the trick.

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Abinadi
Post  Post subject: Re: Under the Banner of Heaven  |  Posted: Thu Jul 23, 2009 8:46 pm
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I think "shunning" is actually the correct (technical) term for what the Jehovah's Witnesses do, collectively, to a back-slider. (http://watchtowershunning.blogspot.com/ and http://spiritualbrother.blogspot.com/2009/04/shunning-study-in-punishment.html)

There is at least one site addressing "shunning" generally not just for JWs: http://religiousshunning.org/Pages/Main.html


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