I am not a mormon, but am dating a mormon girl. I'm an outsider trying to make sense of it all, so hope its okay that I post here. I'll try and keep this short ...

It didn't begin that way. When I first met her she wasn't a mormon ... even though her family is mormon she had rejected it for years. Then, gradually and unknown to me, she felt a desire or need to learn about the religion. She started meeting with missionaries and now that she's going to classes, church, and meeting the bishop she finally told me what's happening and how she feels. Things haven't really changed much between us, we still date as we have but I feel a growing sense of difference, something that wasn't there before. And because of this I'm afraid there might be a growing gap between us.

She's a really smart and down-to-earth girl, which is why I care deeply for her, yet in the face of religion all the critical thinking and reason is somehow suppressed. Faith, I believe its called. There are still signs of critical thinking when certain aspects of the doctrine clash with her own reasoning, but repeated uttering of the words 'faith' and 'growth' by missionaries seem to curb that and she eventually accepts them.

I can see how someone would be drawn in by certain aspects of the church. It grounds the human experience in something bigger, something more concrete. It has definite answers for right and wrong, which can be appealing in a world of grays. Yet its this absolutism that makes me unable to believe in a religion, and thus I am agnostic.

As for mormonism, the whole celestrial kingdom thing is so classist, elitist and sexist that its an unthinkable notion to me. The traditional Christian heaven is more balanced in comparison. But I digress, I'm not here to rant about that.

For her though, passages of good advice and truism in the scriptures (which definitely exists in the Bible or BoM, or else the religions wouldn't survive) become something special when its in one of the sacred texts, despite the fact that they're found in many other religions and ideologies. The church, for all its flaws, does seem to bring positiveness, joy and optimism to its followers. And I have to say that those of us who live a secular life have to rely on pure inner strength when things go wrong and times are tough, but sacrificing sense and logic in order to life a happy sheltered life is something I cannot do.

I don't believe in the religion, but I'm not against her having a belief either because despite these differences, we compliment each other better than I ever have with anyone in my 30ish years of living. Our personalities and dispositions just meld; everything is comfortable and easy. Even with difference of ideologies we discuss and debate things without anger or judgement. So long as she doesn't try to change me.

The problem is I can see her life patterns changing. Its not extreme, but her sense that the church is infallible does get to me sometimes. And there's the slight hint of self-righteousness reveals itself when we debate, say, the afterlife. She respects my opinion, but at the same time she seems to have a slight sense of entitlement since she now possesses the Truth. She's becoming more and more involved with the church, and while there's no telling how far she goes with it I doubt she'll ever become really conservative (she has much independent thinking). Still, there is an increasing sense of doubt in her about our relationship. We haven't talked about it, but I know its because I'm not a member and thus she won't have a temple wedding and become part of a celestial couple.

Sometimes I wonder if she'll ever have a moment of epiphany and start seeing the flaws again, but I can see that her conviction is strong. Since she had rejected the church before and now return to it, its probably a stronger bond than ever . If she now refutes the feelings and logic she used to have when she rejected the church, I don't see how it would be likely that she would reject the church a second time.

Is there anything I can bring up that will help her bring a little more logic to the subject matter? I have argued my point of view on things I don't think makes sense, and while she would initially think "hey you're right ... that doesn't make sense" the church or missionaries would later give her explanations that she will come to accept.

If she were a jack mormon there probably wouldn't be a major problem since they don't take it all that seriously but still believe in the church. A true believing mormon (TBM) is an entirely different matter, the mormons have had almost 150 years to hone their skills to a fine edge and are truly professional in convincing people what they should believe. Not saying there is no hope as long as there is a single thread of cynicism there will always be hope but you should probably also be prepared for the alternative if she does go TBM on you of her being under pressure to bring you into the fold. This might happen via a temple marriage or the like. Also, any form of sexual intercourse is verboten until after marriage and even then there will be rules and restrictions galore on it. I think you are in a tough spot and I wish you well but I don't really know what else to say myself on the subject. Someone else will probably be replying shortly with another perspective on it.

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Quanti canicula ille in fenestra

Hi, Omi,
Most of us here on the board will recognise your situation. It is heartbreaking to watch someone close to you become a Mormon. When they do their main aim will be to convert others,with the family as a priority.
Many people brought up as Mormons seem to oscillate, they leave especially when young and function in the wider community, but go through phases when they return to the church and are very active, possibly seeking the 'testimony' all mormons are promised. I have seen Jehovahs witnesses behave similarly. Your girlfriend might come into that category, she might leave the church again after a year or two of activity.
If she remains she will change, and will probably try to change you. The church teaches emotional manipulation and emotional blackmail, so be prepared for this. You will be asked things like@ if you really love me, come to just one meeting, to see what it is like.' Then it will be another, and another, and a baptism.
Some relationships can survive this pressure, many don't. It's a nasty predicament, and will be made worse if you have children, because she will want to raise them in the church.
The church gives an impression of offering happiness and community, and a sense of fellowship. This doesn't last, it demands money and time, work in teaching and in fundraising, and becomes ever more critical of it's members, demanding more and generating a sense of imperfection and failure. That might be why some opt for intermittent membership, they get out when it gets depressing. Intermittent short term membership of the church is probably the most rewarding for an individual.
It's values are indeed sexist, racist, imperialist, snobbish and utterly at odds with the modern world, it takes a huge determination to believe in it's rubbish. Despite all that it is not possible to reason with believers or those keen to convert. There is always an internal conflict between belief in utter gibberish and your own reason, church membership is ultimately depressing and detrimental to mental health. I hope for her own sake that your girlfriend pulls out of the church again.
If she persists you will need to decide how to cope with a changed person and changed relationship, if that is what you want to do. You can find information, understanding and support on the boards, particularly on the mormon curtain site.

What Dorothy and Thantos said. Ditto x 10

Our friend Bob, also known as Life Rocks has posted numerous posts about what he's experienced as a father and husband of a devout, committed and almost blind and deaf TBM (True Blue Mormon) wife. He went along for years and was as good a Mormon man as one could ever wish but the Cognitive Dissonance got to him and after 25 years he finally couldn't do it anymore. The price for him has been so high, as it has for many of us who are/were in similar circumstances or were born in the church (BIC).

It sounds like you really love this woman and see such great potential in your relationship with her. We've heard similar stories on this board before and seen the heartache that such differences cause so many. For all it's claims to be "The cureall for everyone everywhere" the LDS church has driven a lot of good people apart.

Something a good marriage counselor once told me is to not look at the problem (i.e. he doesn't put the toilet seat down, she talks too much, etc.) but to ask WHY. Why does she need the church? Why does she respond to the doctrine or missionaries? Why does she gravitate toward something that in any other situation would be a clear offense to logic and reason.

WHen you can try to get into her head a little and see what things are motivating her toward something so bizarre and senseless, you might be able to address the actual core of her needs. This sounds so "Dr. Phil", and since I have no degree in anything like psychoanalysis, I'm as qualified as he is to comment.

Many people get lonely and feel a need for community or approval, or just a place to hang out. The LDS church feigns to be the epitome of this and for those willing to suspend logic and reason and become blind followers, it's the perfect community. They have dozens of meetings and social gatherings to appeal to those who are lonely and give out callings like there's no tomorrow to keep the sheep all busy busy busy doing lots of nothing but thinking they're important and essential in the grand scheme.

Some people go through a season of wondering what life is all about or for and become susceptable to a church like the LDS that pretends to have all the answers. They even print them at the end of the question and then guide the listener till they are answering according to the tract or other printed material, and then when they get it right (after being fed the answers) they are congratulated and welcomed and given cookies to reinforce the belief. A little of this and soon they learn like Pavlovian dogs to just wait to be told the answer to the great question, and then repeat it back and DING, the cookie drops down. Cool system eh?

I sincerely hope you and your girlfriend will be able to talk freely and openly about all these issues. It's imperative that you resolve this now because a few years into it and it will be the biggest wedge you can ever imagine and will hurt even more when you're "Fully invested". Whatever you do, don't get married or have kids till you work this out.

THere's hundreds, maybe even thousands of former LDS whove been through hell and back when they try to leave the church and the spouse and kids remain. It's not like any other divorce where one parent leaves the house and establishes a new life. It's so much more complicated and messy and the one out of the church is always always always left on the sidelines and villified. Life Rocks, Zelph, myself and many others could regale you for hours about the pain this has caused. I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy.

This is the best time in your relationship to establish honesty and openess and fair discussion. I hope it works for you and that you get to have it all. You seem like a guy who deserves the best.

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Pissing in the Mormon Koolaide one post at a time. LIE PINOCCHIO!!! LIE!!!!

Everything Insanad said, plus, keep in mind that as time goes by, there will be more to deal with. With every year, she'll know she doesn't have the Celestial Family she is constantly told she wants. With every birth, she'll know her child isn't sealed to her for eternity. When it's time to give the baby it's 1st blessing, she'll have to find someone other than the father to do it. Likewise with baptisms, ordination to the priesthood, father's blessings, blessing for the sick, for comfort, etc. Every time she has to go to a home teacher or relative exercise the priesthood in her home, she'll be reminded that it should be her husband performing these offices, and he isn't.

She'll come to know why the church places so much emphasis on not dating non-members. She'll be reminded how urgent it is to convert you, be sealed to you, and form that Celestial Famly. The internal pressure will be enormous.

Of course, the church will only baptize your children if you give your consent. Likewise with ordination to the priesthood, etc. However, not giving your consent will be seen as active opposition to the church. That will have even worse ramifications for your marriage. As long as she holds out hope that you can be converted, she will hope. But if you prove, by "opposition" to the church that not only will you not be converted, but you will try to keep "her" children from their eternal destiny, then you become the enemy. That would likely prove the final straw.

I'm not saying I know what will happen. I'm only saying things based on what I saw as an active member for 27 years. And what I've read here from people who were in longer than I was. And all the horror stories at Mormon Curtain.

The church keeps its hooks in you with the power of internal guilt. "You know the church is true. You're just not living what you know." "You'll be happier when you come back." It's all internal. On the outside, all they say to you is how much they love and miss you. They "love" you into the church, but once you're in, and it looks like you'll stay, they just want to start giving you work to do to keep the whole thing going.

Good luck, friend. Welcome to the forums.

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Something is rotten in the state of Utah.

Thanks for all your replies. I've read some of the other threads and you have a supportive motley crew here.

I think she got into it because like all religions it answers the big questions of life. I mean they're all nice stories, a divine plan, a reason for existence, a group that's ostracized but survived persecutions and is now expanding globally. An epic struggle. Divine strength to endure adversity. etc. To be honest it has a air of truth and justice before you look at the specifics and details. When she reads the scriptures she'll keep finding passages that ring true, which help her squelch the doubts that she has.

I don't think she feels oppressiveness or find parts of it depressing because she would definitely not stand for that and get out. Right now for her its all shiny and bright. I think she's at that stage now where every positive thing about the church is amazing and negative things are simply her misunderstandings.

This question may not apply to those who were born into the church, but when you first got into it did you also have a glowy vision of the church and the BoM?

She does talk freely with me about what she's been learning, not as an attempt to convert me, I think, but simply since its all so new to her and I'm someone for her to talk to. Since I don't believe, I can't offer her insights and opinions that don't antagonize her and so she gets a little frustrated. Other than missionaries and church, she's started going to meetings and other activities with those in her ward. Does she get invited to those things by simply meeting friends? Or are those pushed onto her by the church to get her more involved with its community? It seems to have a way of gradually taking up more and more of her time.

Stake. Patriarch. Priesthood. Celestial Kingdom. Calling. Testimonial. (Crazy to think that I knew nothing about mormonism a year or two ago and I'm using all their terminologies)

Oh and Relief Society. (I find that name funny and ironic)

Bardman, thanks for the advice. I'm also looking very cautiously at this development. I'm not willing to give this up but neither do I want to end up living a lie, which would be much worse. As for me, I already know the answer to the ultimate question ... now I just need to know what that ultimate question is. (yes,yes, lightening the mood for myself)

The church keeps you busy. If you have time to think, that's bad. Activities, dances, dinners, socials, leadership meetings, they can cover nearly every night of the week. They will take up as much time as you are willing to give them.

To answer another question, yes, I did have a rosy, perfect picture of the church for many years. As time went by, I saw the warts, but consoled myself with the old, "The people aren't perfect, the church is perfect," line.

After a while, I saw that the doctrine wasn't perfect, either. Finally, I learned enough about the doctrine, the history, and the character of Joe Smith that I sent them my "Thank you, no" letter.

Be wary. Once they're sure she's in their grasp, they'll start asking her if they can come visit you, too.

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Something is rotten in the state of Utah.

They will take up every moment you give them, demand more and are professionals at laying guilt trips.

Also, most of the mormon women I knew used sex as a tool to get hubby to do whatever she wanted him to do including joining the church. Mormon women are taught that sex is for one purpose and one purpose only, procreation. I think that if it's fun, your doing it wrong is the point they seem to be trying to get across. Just things to think about and I know that using sex as a tool is not just a mormon thing but it does seem to be a fine art with them.

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Quanti canicula ille in fenestra

Omi, what you're going through is such a perfect example of what many experience and your girlfriend is being 'Love Bombed" with attention. It all feels so good at first and reassures her that what she's doing is the right thing. The bad side of that is that once she's invested by either re-baptism or more, she will get a little calling, then a more involved calling, and another and another. Eventually even if you don't yet get married, it will suck every living breathing moment of her day and life and all of your former glorious weekend time. Sundays, screw it because church starts at 8:00 with correlation meeting and doesn't stop till all the blood, time, money and energy have been extracted. Mondays, family home evening, complete with a little mini-sacrament meeting, tuesday, youth and adult activities, or on wednesday and thurs., Friday, social functions, dances, temple night, etc.. Saturday, service projects and back to Sunday. Forget about that camping trip or day cruise to Catalina.

It's a black hole that we all fought fiercly to get out of, often having to leave behind the ones we love most.

If you can, plan plenty of activities and romantic times away from the church and if necessary, combat the lovebombing with your own. Make what you offer far more enticing than what she's getting from the church. Show her that you care and are genuinely interested in her thoughts and ideas and enjoy the process of discovering things that make sense to BOTH of you.

Rest assured, the churchy types will be pulling strong on the other side but if you don't help her escape now before the skin grows over the clawhooks, it may be impossible for her to ever leave.

We're here for you though and we do know how hard it all is. She sounds like a perfectly intelligent and worthwhile person and for your sake, I hope she sees you as far more valuable than the silly external approval she gets for now from the church. Perhaps someday you could invite her to read some of the things we post on this site. Look carefully and find one that isn't too risque but shares some of the things we've discussed. It might plant a little seed that could help her to see outside that little tight box that the Mormons will bury her in. I hope it works for you Omi.

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Pissing in the Mormon Koolaide one post at a time. LIE PINOCCHIO!!! LIE!!!!

My marriage is simple, we are friends first and lovers/husband/wife SECOND, this seems to do away with most of the crap that our other married friends deal with since many of them feel that the marriage license is a transfer of ownership. For some reason our marriage working well for 15 years is a matter of confusion for them even after that explanation. As long as you treat her like a friend and actually listen and converse about what is going on the lovebombing should be conquerable. This is just my opinion because I think my wife to be my closest friend and confidant.

Be her friend and things can work out just fine since the people lovebombing her have a ulterior motive and you really don't other than to be there for her and contribute to her wellbeing.

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Quanti canicula ille in fenestra

Well said, sir!

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Something is rotten in the state of Utah.

Omi,

That is an interesting name. What does it mean to you? Or is it your name?

I feel your heartache. You apparently love her very much. Somehow she has "changed" during your relationship -- as many people do --albeit, they do not usually join a cult.

I understand what it is like to read the BOM and pray to the mormon god if "these things are true" and the burning bossom thing. There is the family-thing too. "Families are forever" that is the promise the missionaries lure you in with -- it is all very calculated and structured.

Does she really know how you feel? Or do you think you will loose her by telling her? I think your relationship could really work out --especially since you have dated for a while. The problem is if you have children. They will teach them that you are not "good enough."

I am not sure where you live? If you are not bombarded by Mormon fellowshipping, then it may not be a big deal -- just when you get together with the family.


Hell, I never raised my kids lds, but when they were younger they were so impressionable by our lds relatives. For a while they thought my hubby and I were sinners -- can you imagine that? The nerve! lol

sorry if my spelling is off "lose" her