View unanswered posts
View active topics
It is currently Mon May 20, 2013 9:04 pm


Author Message
balaam
Post  Post subject: A Jewish view of the Book of Mormon  |  Posted: Sun Jun 05, 2011 8:18 am
User avatar
2nd Presidency

Joined: Mon Apr 13, 2009 5:04 pm
Posts: 806
Location: Spirit Prison (i.e., surrounded by Mormonites)

Offline
http://www.yadlachimusa.org.il/?Categor ... icleID=603

This is an exceptionally interesting article about the Book of Mormon from a Jewish perspective. Apparently someone sent this guy a book of mormon asking him to read it and comment (probably hoping he would somehow be impressed) and he does a great job of pointing out how bogus the book is without trying to be too critical of those who insist on believing in it.

The one possible error I noted was that the author assumes that Mopologists argue that Lehi traveled as far as China. I don't know if they address how Lehi made it from Bountiful (which they argue is in Yemen or Oman) to the new world. Of course that is another obvious problem with the book because if they departed from Yemen or Oman they would have had to do a lot of island hopping to get to the new world, and the BoM doesn't mention anything at all about that.

Other than that, his analysis is spot on.

_________________
"It's easy to see without lookin' too far that not much is really sacred."

Bob Dylan


Top
Rainfeather
Post  Post subject: Re: A Jewish view of the Book of Mormon  |  Posted: Sun Jun 05, 2011 8:41 am
User avatar
MODERATOR

Joined: Sun Dec 07, 2008 7:46 pm
Posts: 5675

Offline
That was really interesting. Yeah, I went, "China?" as well. I'd never heard of that idea before. Maybe it's an Apologist thing, trying to bring in the East-Asian DNA.

_________________
"A mind stretched by a new idea can never go back to its original dimensions." - Oliver Wendell Holmes


Top
Abinadi
Post  Post subject: Re: A Jewish view of the Book of Mormon  |  Posted: Sun Jun 05, 2011 12:48 pm
User avatar
MODERATOR

Joined: Thu Mar 13, 2008 12:23 am
Posts: 7259
Location: D&C 101:22-23; Mark 15:38

Offline
Superb article, Balaam. Thanks. It starts, "Concerning the Book of Mormon, it is clear that its narrative deals with people in historical and physical context and so it must be compatible with the real physical universe in which the characters lived." And only gets better. Some arguments I had not heard of, or points I had not heard of.

Textual criticism destroys mormon claims for the Book of Mormon every time.

_________________
"Everyone has to find his own path." - Ip-Man


Top
productofchoice
Post  Post subject: Re: A Jewish view of the Book of Mormon  |  Posted: Mon Jun 06, 2011 7:29 am
God

Joined: Wed Apr 06, 2011 12:49 pm
Posts: 1634
Location: NC

Offline
Loved the article. THANKS!

_________________
I resigned from the Church of THE Jesus Christ of the Latter Day Saints (Feb 2011)

"For nothing is secret, that shall not be made manifest; neither any thing hid, that shall not be known and come abroad." - Luke 8:17


Top
Abish
Post  Post subject: Re: A Jewish view of the Book of Mormon  |  Posted: Mon Jun 06, 2011 12:18 pm
User avatar
Stake President

Joined: Sat Apr 23, 2011 1:27 pm
Posts: 572

Offline
Dale Baranowski wrote:
To begin with I found a problem with the second verse in the Book of Mormon:
"Yea, I make a record in the language of my father, which consists of the learning of the Jews and the language of the Egyptians." (1 Nephi 1.2, pg 1)
I find a number of difficulties with the aspect that claims that the ancient Israelites continued to speak Egyptian 600 years after the exodus from Egypt. I doubt the record of the Book of Mormon as their experience in Egypt was so bitter they would have avoided even the Egyptian language since it would revive the association of Egypt. This same thing happens today in the case of German Jews who survived the Holocaust. They avoid speaking German as a rule. Also, people who migrate from place to place when a change of language is involved, the language of the 'old country' is hardly spoken at all past the third generation. For the Book of Mormon to claim that there were Jews in Jerusalem who, 15 generations after the Exodus, were still speaking some form of Egyptian is rather much for me to believe. Also consider that no written fragments of any form of Egyptian have ever been found in Israel from the first temple Period.


http://en.fairmormon.org/Book_of_Mormon ... d_Egyptian
Any comments on that?

_________________
THE TIME WILL COME WHEN NO MAN OR WOMAN WILL BE ABLE TO ENDURE ON BORROWED LIGHT. EACH WILL HAVE TO BE GUIDED BY THE LIGHT WITHIN HIMSELF. IF YOU DO NOT HAVE IT, HOW CAN YOU STAND?
- Heber C. Kimball, 1856


Top
Abish
Post  Post subject: Re: A Jewish view of the Book of Mormon  |  Posted: Mon Jun 06, 2011 12:26 pm
User avatar
Stake President

Joined: Sat Apr 23, 2011 1:27 pm
Posts: 572

Offline
Dale Baranowski wrote:
The second difficulty occurred as the family in the narrative set up camp after a three-day journey into the Sinai wilderness:
"And it came to pass that he built an altar of stones, and made an offering unto the Lord." (1 Nephi 2.7, pg 3)
Here the problem is that individual altars for offerings and sacrifices were forbidden even before the Temple of Solomon was erected, and that centralized worship was the norm, and every Israelite at the time knew it. Yet the narrative passed this incident off without comment as if it was perfectly normal. This would not have happened if the author of the Book of Mormon actually lived in 600 BCE as the LDS Church claims.

May be Lehi didn't pass and included in his writings? but Nephi didn't includ in his record. According to the Book of Mormon Nephi didn't write everything what his father Lehi wrote. Nephi didn't write all things that God told to his father Lehi. Nephi only mentioned important things/events/ revealtions that God ave to Lehi but without ALL the details.
So, I don't see any problem here.

_________________
THE TIME WILL COME WHEN NO MAN OR WOMAN WILL BE ABLE TO ENDURE ON BORROWED LIGHT. EACH WILL HAVE TO BE GUIDED BY THE LIGHT WITHIN HIMSELF. IF YOU DO NOT HAVE IT, HOW CAN YOU STAND?
- Heber C. Kimball, 1856


Top
Abish
Post  Post subject: Re: A Jewish view of the Book of Mormon  |  Posted: Mon Jun 06, 2011 12:38 pm
User avatar
Stake President

Joined: Sat Apr 23, 2011 1:27 pm
Posts: 572

Offline
Dale Baranowski wrote:
The third difficulty occurs immediately afterwards:
"And it came to pass that when he had traveled three days in the wilderness, he pitched his tent in a valley by the side of a river of water. ..and when my father saw that the waters of the river emptied into the fountain in the Red Sea, he spake unto Laman, saying; 'O that thou mightest be like unto this river continually running into the fountain of all righteousness". (1 Nephi 2.6 pg 3)
It seems quite plain to me that the author had never been in the Sinai wilderness near the Red Sea. If he had he would have known that rivers in that area do nothing of the kind! They do everything but 'flow continuously'! They are strictly occasional events occurring when a winter cloudburst breaks forth. The result is that a tidal wave of water washes through the valleys, finishing within hours or a day. This is usually a violent surge of water capable of rolling boulders of several tons in weight. If any man stood in its way he would be swept away and drowned in seconds. No, friend, the pastoral river referred to in the narrative is not to be found in the Sinai, but in more temperate climes.


Any comments on that? Thay have some photos of river that exist in that area and "continually running,"

http://en.fairmormon.org/index.php?titl ... ldid=76001

_________________
THE TIME WILL COME WHEN NO MAN OR WOMAN WILL BE ABLE TO ENDURE ON BORROWED LIGHT. EACH WILL HAVE TO BE GUIDED BY THE LIGHT WITHIN HIMSELF. IF YOU DO NOT HAVE IT, HOW CAN YOU STAND?
- Heber C. Kimball, 1856


Top
productofchoice
Post  Post subject: Re: A Jewish view of the Book of Mormon  |  Posted: Mon Jun 06, 2011 1:06 pm
God

Joined: Wed Apr 06, 2011 12:49 pm
Posts: 1634
Location: NC

Offline
@Abish

That valley with a continous flow of water marked as A on the Fairlds map ... it's 150-200 miles from Jerusalem. Kinda far for a 3 day journey.

_________________
I resigned from the Church of THE Jesus Christ of the Latter Day Saints (Feb 2011)

"For nothing is secret, that shall not be made manifest; neither any thing hid, that shall not be known and come abroad." - Luke 8:17


Top
productofchoice
Post  Post subject: Re: A Jewish view of the Book of Mormon  |  Posted: Mon Jun 06, 2011 1:12 pm
God

Joined: Wed Apr 06, 2011 12:49 pm
Posts: 1634
Location: NC

Offline
@Abish regarding egyptian writings in sacred scripture.

Really? They are claiming that the sacred scripture would be written in the language of the idol worshippers and former enslaving masters. That's rediculous.
Run that by a few Jews and see what their response is.

Show me proof that these are sacred Hebrew writings. Show me proof that they would have written any book of the Torah in egyptian.

_________________
I resigned from the Church of THE Jesus Christ of the Latter Day Saints (Feb 2011)

"For nothing is secret, that shall not be made manifest; neither any thing hid, that shall not be known and come abroad." - Luke 8:17


Top
productofchoice
Post  Post subject: Re: A Jewish view of the Book of Mormon  |  Posted: Mon Jun 06, 2011 1:22 pm
God

Joined: Wed Apr 06, 2011 12:49 pm
Posts: 1634
Location: NC

Offline
@Abish about the altar.

Oh yes, it's much more important that Nephi talk about the broken bow than it is to establish that they brought with them the Levites to offer sacrifices in strange places to God.

Maybe you can find the answer in the "Abridgement of the book of Lehi"
http://losttruthfound.com/abridgementofrecordoflehi.pdf
Lehi 9:3 wrote:
9:3 And, behold, this was also according to the words of the
Lord unto me when he did first appear unto me as the flame of
fire; yea, when the Lord did appear as fire upon the altar before
me. And, behold, it was also according to the words which were
written upon the Liahona, after the time of our murmuring in the
desolate wilderness of the desert of Arabia.


Ahhh, the golden clock told him to do it so I guess it was ok to ignore the law ... again.

_________________
I resigned from the Church of THE Jesus Christ of the Latter Day Saints (Feb 2011)

"For nothing is secret, that shall not be made manifest; neither any thing hid, that shall not be known and come abroad." - Luke 8:17


Top
productofchoice
Post  Post subject: Re: A Jewish view of the Book of Mormon  |  Posted: Mon Jun 06, 2011 1:54 pm
God

Joined: Wed Apr 06, 2011 12:49 pm
Posts: 1634
Location: NC

Offline
@Abish regarding Egyptian and Hebrew mix

Fairlds wrote:
The claim that Israelites would not use Egyptian is clearly false. By the ninth to sixth centuries before Christ, Israelites used Egyptian numerals mingled with Hebrew text.


YEAH! So if there are many documents showing a mix of Hebrew and Egyptian, then it seems the rosetta stone is not the only link between Egyptian and modern languages. This would strengthen the case that we can read the scrolls for the Book of Abraham accurately (which non-LDS historians already know). This is problematic for one book or the other ... ok, really boths suffer because if one book falls so does the other.

_________________
I resigned from the Church of THE Jesus Christ of the Latter Day Saints (Feb 2011)

"For nothing is secret, that shall not be made manifest; neither any thing hid, that shall not be known and come abroad." - Luke 8:17


Last edited by productofchoice on Mon Jun 06, 2011 3:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.


Top
Abinadi
Post  Post subject: Re: A Jewish view of the Book of Mormon  |  Posted: Mon Jun 06, 2011 3:18 pm
User avatar
MODERATOR

Joined: Thu Mar 13, 2008 12:23 am
Posts: 7259
Location: D&C 101:22-23; Mark 15:38

Offline
Abish wrote:
http://en.fairmormon.org/Book_of_Mormon/Anachronisms/Language/Reformed_Egyptian
Any comments on that?
I'm more interested in official mormon teachings. This seems to be a site where different scholars can offer their personal opinions. Doesn't the Church have anything official to say on ..... anything?

I already posted comments on some of FAIRS exagerrated claims: http://exmormonforums.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=2334&p=35349&hilit=Papyrus+Amherst+63#p35349.
Any comments on those?

(The link given to a Jewish Scroll translation no longer works.)

_________________
"Everyone has to find his own path." - Ip-Man


Top
Abish
Post  Post subject: Re: A Jewish view of the Book of Mormon  |  Posted: Mon Jun 06, 2011 5:31 pm
User avatar
Stake President

Joined: Sat Apr 23, 2011 1:27 pm
Posts: 572

Offline
productofchoice wrote:
@Abish

That valley with a continous flow of water marked as A on the Fairlds map ... it's 150-200 miles from Jerusalem. Kinda far for a 3 day journey.

It doesn't matter. Dale Baranowski said that there are no these kind of rivers in that land.
Fact: there are these kind of rivers in that land.

Read this again, please:
" Lehi said that it ran continuously to the Red Sea, not that it flowed continuously throughout the year, and this can be fulfilled by a path for a wadi that goes into the Red Sea, regardless of how often the path has flowing water.[8] "
So, at that moment when Lehi saw the river it continuously flowed to the Red Sea. So Lehi wanted his son to be like this river at this time.

_________________
THE TIME WILL COME WHEN NO MAN OR WOMAN WILL BE ABLE TO ENDURE ON BORROWED LIGHT. EACH WILL HAVE TO BE GUIDED BY THE LIGHT WITHIN HIMSELF. IF YOU DO NOT HAVE IT, HOW CAN YOU STAND?
- Heber C. Kimball, 1856


Top
Abish
Post  Post subject: Re: A Jewish view of the Book of Mormon  |  Posted: Mon Jun 06, 2011 5:55 pm
User avatar
Stake President

Joined: Sat Apr 23, 2011 1:27 pm
Posts: 572

Offline
Abinadi wrote:
Abish wrote:
http://en.fairmormon.org/Book_of_Mormon/Anachronisms/Language/Reformed_Egyptian
Any comments on that?
I'm more interested in official mormon teachings.

I don't think we will have official teachings on that. Official teachings are about things that important for our salvation. What is not important for our salvation is not priority. Prophets may talk about it if they want, but I am not sure they have much time for this.
According to FAIR Dale Baranowski is not informed and wrong. That is fine with me.

_________________
THE TIME WILL COME WHEN NO MAN OR WOMAN WILL BE ABLE TO ENDURE ON BORROWED LIGHT. EACH WILL HAVE TO BE GUIDED BY THE LIGHT WITHIN HIMSELF. IF YOU DO NOT HAVE IT, HOW CAN YOU STAND?
- Heber C. Kimball, 1856


Top
productofchoice
Post  Post subject: Re: A Jewish view of the Book of Mormon  |  Posted: Mon Jun 06, 2011 7:02 pm
God

Joined: Wed Apr 06, 2011 12:49 pm
Posts: 1634
Location: NC

Offline
Abish wrote:
productofchoice wrote:
@Abish

That valley with a continous flow of water marked as A on the Fairlds map ... it's 150-200 miles from Jerusalem. Kinda far for a 3 day journey.

It doesn't matter. Dale Baranowski said that there are no these kind of rivers in that land.
Fact: there are these kind of rivers in that land.



Israel is only 71 miles wide and 263 miles north to south. This river is 2 to 3 times the width away from Jerusalem. It's also outside of the boundaries of the kingdom so one could say that there were no rivers in the land.

_________________
I resigned from the Church of THE Jesus Christ of the Latter Day Saints (Feb 2011)

"For nothing is secret, that shall not be made manifest; neither any thing hid, that shall not be known and come abroad." - Luke 8:17


Top
Abinadi
Post  Post subject: Re: A Jewish view of the Book of Mormon  |  Posted: Mon Jun 06, 2011 9:22 pm
User avatar
MODERATOR

Joined: Thu Mar 13, 2008 12:23 am
Posts: 7259
Location: D&C 101:22-23; Mark 15:38

Offline
Abish wrote:
Abinadi wrote:
Abish wrote:
http://en.fairmormon.org/Book_of_Mormon/Anachronisms/Language/Reformed_Egyptian
Any comments on that?
I'm more interested in official mormon teachings.
I don't think we will have official teachings on that. Official teachings are about things that important for our salvation. What is not important for our salvation is not priority.
Then why do you treat it as though it is important? If it is not important, drop it. If you keep trying to justify something, everyone knows it is "important" to you, and most likely the importance is somehow related to your concept of salvation.

_________________
"Everyone has to find his own path." - Ip-Man


Top
Abish
Post  Post subject: Re: A Jewish view of the Book of Mormon  |  Posted: Mon Jun 06, 2011 10:12 pm
User avatar
Stake President

Joined: Sat Apr 23, 2011 1:27 pm
Posts: 572

Offline
Abinadi wrote:
Abish wrote:
Then why do you treat it as though it is important? If it is not important, drop it. If you keep trying to justify something, everyone knows it is "important" to you, and most likely the importance is somehow related to your concept of salvation.

I don't treat it as it is important to me. I don't justify anything. I just don't see a problem where Dale Baranowski sees it.

_________________
THE TIME WILL COME WHEN NO MAN OR WOMAN WILL BE ABLE TO ENDURE ON BORROWED LIGHT. EACH WILL HAVE TO BE GUIDED BY THE LIGHT WITHIN HIMSELF. IF YOU DO NOT HAVE IT, HOW CAN YOU STAND?
- Heber C. Kimball, 1856


Top
Abinadi
Post  Post subject: Re: A Jewish view of the Book of Mormon  |  Posted: Mon Jun 06, 2011 10:29 pm
User avatar
MODERATOR

Joined: Thu Mar 13, 2008 12:23 am
Posts: 7259
Location: D&C 101:22-23; Mark 15:38

Offline
Abish wrote:
Abinadi wrote:
Abish wrote:
Then why do you treat it as though it is important? If it is not important, drop it. If you keep trying to justify something, everyone knows it is "important" to you, and most likely the importance is somehow related to your concept of salvation.

I don't treat it as it is important to me. I don't justify anything. I just don't see a problem where Dale Baranowski sees it.
You treat it as important by even deigning to talk about it. If it is not important, why argue so hard for it?

_________________
"Everyone has to find his own path." - Ip-Man


Top
Rainfeather
Post  Post subject: Re: A Jewish view of the Book of Mormon  |  Posted: Tue Jun 07, 2011 6:43 am
User avatar
MODERATOR

Joined: Sun Dec 07, 2008 7:46 pm
Posts: 5675

Offline
The LDS Church's ideal member is someone who will state, "I hear no evil, see no evil, speak no evil about the Corporation. Even if it is right under my nose, I will not see it." Just the sort of person the Church hopes to create and loves the most. That person has been perfectly and completely programmed.

I would love to know the response of the person Mr. Baranowski was writing to.

_________________
"A mind stretched by a new idea can never go back to its original dimensions." - Oliver Wendell Holmes


Top
Abinadi
Post  Post subject: Re: A Jewish view of the Book of Mormon  |  Posted: Tue Jun 07, 2011 9:39 am
User avatar
MODERATOR

Joined: Thu Mar 13, 2008 12:23 am
Posts: 7259
Location: D&C 101:22-23; Mark 15:38

Offline
@ Abish:
Abinadi wrote:
Abish wrote:
http://en.fairmormon.org/Book_of_Mormon/Anachronisms/Language/Reformed_Egyptian
Any comments on that?
........I already posted comments on some of FAIRS exagerrated claims: http://exmormonforums.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=2334&p=35349&hilit=Papyrus+Amherst+63#p35349.
Any comments on those?

_________________
"Everyone has to find his own path." - Ip-Man


Top
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Print view

Who is online
Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
Jump to:   


Delete all board cookies | The team | All times are UTC - 7 hours [ DST ]

Powered by phpBB © phpBB Group.